posted June 18, 2002 17:07         

Bucky
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The discussion about SNW on one of the “Trip” threads got me thinking about T'Pol as a locus of the tensions surrounding race and gender, and that these are especially evident in her interactions with Tucker. What struck me about Trip’s exchanges with T’Pol was that neither he nor we can separate her female identity from her Vulcan identity. He reacts to her gender as well as to her race. Furthermore, the character of T’Pol is presented to the audience as a highly sexualized character in one aspect of her appearance, yet one who is nonetheless cool and non-reactive in another.

When we first meet her in “Broken Bow,” T’Pol is dressed in traditional robes like the others in the Vulcan delegation. And although it is clear who is male and who is female in the group, the similarity of their robes help to mask other identifying physical features. T’Pol and the male aide in Ambassador Soval’s retinue wear identical outfits. The Vulcan costume is unflattering to full female breasts, making even T’Pol look matronly. T’Pol is in the background for most of the scene speaking only to reassert the Vulcan position that humans are not ready to enter into deep space travel. When Archer replies that he is close to knocking her on her ass, her response is enigmatic silence, but the audience reads it as a retreat. Score one for Archer against the Vulcans. She remains with the Vulcan delegation and leaves as one of several, one we have noticed but not as an individual character.

Yet when she joins the Enterprise, she is dressed in a form fitting unitard that both reveals her figure and masks it. The cloth hugs her torso, arms and legs, yet is folded over her breasts coming up high on her neck in an another imitation of middle-aged matronliness. Her face is young, her lips puffily full, but her hair is cut short in an almost boyish bob. Thus, in this encounter with the fictional cast as well as the live audience she is a compendium of visual contradictions appearing to be both sexually available and frostily remote. In contrast, the human crew members are dressed alike—the uniforms for both male and female are identical. The costumer has taken care to tailor each uniform to flatter the wearer. Thus, the viewer is aware of the curvy silhouette of the female crew as well as the angular, inverted triangle of the males. But because the human crewmembers are dressed alike, we are always conscious of T’Pol’s difference. This is probably necessary to emphasize her status as Vulcan as well as her status as female since she otherwise looks remarkably human, and white human at that. Since the series foregrounds the racial divide between humans and Vulcans, it is necessary that the audience always be conscious of her as distinct from the crew. However, in their attempt to create her into a sex object for the young male demographic the producers have inadvertently stumbled into the nexus of race and gender that is one of the central ideological debates today.

T’Pol is intensely, overtly different. She is the Other, in her race, her culture, and her gender. The scenes between T’Pol and Tucker are so memorable specifically because of this contrast. The producers intended him to be the “McCoy” figure in the triumvirate—the emotional counterpart to her logic. But he is more than that. From a human perspective, he is insistently normal. He is cheerful, friendly, and outgoing. Except for the “regular,” emotion-suppressing Vulcans, aliens and humans alike tend to flock to him. But almost every exchange between Tucker and T’Pol is charged with friction that draws our attention to them.

It is not that there is no overt contrast between Archer and T’Pol, there is. In fact, the scripts go out of their way to put them together, and have them represent “Human” and “Vulcan” points of view. Their growing friendship and trust is a deliberate plot contrivance throughout the season. Archer is individualized enough still to be hurting from what he sees as Vulcan interference in preventing his father from making the strides necessary to test his warp engine before he died. He overcomes his personal prejudices in order to value and trust T’Pol. . But the contrast between Tucker and T’Pol is more noticeable precisely because it seems to have moved away from its original intent—ie, she’s logical, he’s emotional.

When she first arrives, she presents her orders to Archer formally, but immediately reveals her disgust at an unidentifiable odor--probably the dog, Porthos. Here is where Trip and T’Pol first meet. Up until this point Archer has been friendly and amused with T’Pol, acknowledging her both as an official by accepting her transfer orders and as an individual by acknowledging her sensitivity to odors (but declining to apologize for their cause.). But Trip challenges her, saying, “I took a shower today. How ‘bout you, Cap’n?” When Archer introduces them, he gives Trip’s full name and title, Commander Charles Tucker III. Trip immediately stands, offers his hand, and says, “Trip, my friends call me Trip.” She dismisses him, ignoring his hand, saying, “I’ll try to remember that” in a tone implying that it is useless information. They will not be friends.

Thinking about this scene, it struck me that Trip here is challenging T’Pol’s Vulcan-ness on one level--”I took a shower today”--while enacting traditional male/female introduction rituals on another--standing up, offering his hand, giving permission to use his nickname. T’Pol, for her part, refuses to engage, remaining aloof from the discourse. She has a means of interacting with Archer because he is the captain, but no means of interacting with Trip. She has no way to accommodate the contradiction of his teasing with his friendly gesture. As a result she does not react at all. Her silence creates a vacuum in the interchange which leaves Trip speechless. She has won the first battle by refusing to participate. Her encounters with Archer up to this point have been those of two officials from two cultures, or races. But her exchange with Tucker was both Vulcan/human and male/female. Thus their encounter has been about power as it intersects with race and gender, as will all their subsequent exchanges in the premiere.

The standoffs in this episode between these two characters are interesting because their dialogue is always at variance with their physical interaction. Usually they are standing facing each other in what normally is a posture that indicates romantic interest. They are too close for “neutral” space, but too far for complete intimacy. Trip always looks down at T’Pol, who returns his gaze. Yet their conversations are typically a challenge from him, a logical rebuttal from her, followed by a rejoinder from him based on emotion. Usually, the scene ends with the camera off her silently absorbing his comment. The conversation would seem to follow the path of Spock/McCoy interactions, yet we are never allowed to forget that Tucker is male, masculine or that T’Pol is female, feminine. The camera focuses upon his masculine physique, broad shoulders, narrow waist and hips; similarly the framing emphasizes her thinness, the delicacy of her facial features, the outline of her breasts. They are not just two officers disagreeing on policy; they are always a man and woman disagreeing. And because their disagreement is always about Human versus Vulcan policies, we are never allowed to forget that this is a Human man and a Vulcan woman. If she is Vulcan personified for the crew, she is also female Vulcan.

The most famous of their encounters, the decon scene, is simply the most overt example of the paradigm, and the most eroticized. Their physical stance is the same as before, but now they are nearly naked , rubbing gel on themselves and each other while continuing the same argumentive discourse that has marked all their conversations: she asserts the logic of returning to earth, he counters with the emotion of allowing the captain to finish what he started. Once again, he gets the last word, and the last word is a negative assessment of Vulcans as imperialist oppressors. This scene was not necessary to establish the racial and sexual tension between Tucker and T’Pol — it was already clear in scenes in the captain’s mess, on Rigel X, in Engineering, etc. — but it left no confusion about its presence.

However, the final Trip/T’Pol encounter on the bridge has them eye-to-eye, thus neutralizing the considerable physical difference between them. T’Pol sits in the Captain’s chair, having taken over Enterprise, intending to abandon Archer to the Suliban. Trip challenges her to return for the Captain, continually moving toward her, leaning down. She finally rises, and the finally shot is a side view of the two of them face to face. Once again he challenges her logic with emotion. “That is a specious argument,” she asserts after he insists that she owes Archer for having saved her life. “Is it?” he retorts. Again, she says nothing in reply. But the next scene is preparations for rescuing Archer with all parties engaged.

This is the background for Trip’s reaction to T’Pol in “Strange New Worlds.” Their physical encounters re-enact those from the premiere as they face off, always staring directly at each other’s eyes. Up until this point in the series Trip has always backed down when dealing with T’Pol. This time he believes, however erroneously, that he cannot back down because the safety of the crew members with him, of Enterprise itself, depend upon his asserting himself, of making her back down. What triggered this long reflection was the discussion of why Trip conjures a hallucination of Mr. Velek, the Vulcan science teacher who he both feared and respected. In the midst of his growing irrationality, he focuses upon T’Pol as the locus of deceit and danger, yet deep in his unconscious he knows that she is innocent. Mr. Velek is the “good” Vulcan from his past that Trip can trust, someone he wants to please and whose opinion he respects. He is also male and older. The fact that T’Pol is older is irrelevant here because at this point Trip doesn’t know how old she is, and furthermore, she looks younger than he. IE once again, she looks desirable, but maintains an outward calm and distance that contradicts her appearance. Trip can better sort out the issue of race, if he removes the issue of gender. Hence he calls up the vision of Mr. Velek.

posted June 18, 2002 17:11         

In an earlier thread, convincing arguments were made that, once Trip is affected by the pollen in SNW, he goes into military mode and is protecting his crew from T'Pol and the rock people. But why does he suspect T'Pol of conspiracy? She is a member of the crew and hasn't done anything to warrant his accusations other than be a logical, practical Vulcan. This did not seem in keeping with the Trip seen since. (I haven't yet seen Broken Bow, so I am missing important background which you supplied in your post.)

In SNW, T'Pol leads the team to explore the unknown planet and selects Cutler based upon her expertise with insects. While preparing to depart, T'Pol doesn't respond to Cutler's friendly overtures, and Trip, who overhears, tells Cutler she would have better luck making friends with a house fly. On the planet, the humans bond over a fire and a ghost story while T'Pol sits apart and works - whenever the camera focuses on Trip, she is seen, out-of-focus, in the background. She doesn't fit in either visually or culturally. After the ghost story ends, T'Pol remarks that it would be unlikely for a beacon to work for 63 years, proving that, although not participating she is listening and absorbing the tale and has come to a logical conclusion. Again, Trip makes a comment which places T'Pol on the outside, saying "Let me guess, no ghost stories on Vulcan." These seemingly harmless snide remarks undermine respect for T'Pol by the other crew members. With his charm and open nature, Trip had the power to make things easy for T'Pol by showing respect for her differences - her culture - and by leading through example; instead, he chose to cause dissension which had repercussions later in SNW.

Cutler is the first to accuse T'Pol of meeting secretly with the rock people. Later Cutler tells Trip not to trust T'Pol, that it could be a trap, when T'Pol suggests they go look for water. T'Pol tells Trip she has no reason to lie, that the only humanoid life forms on the planet are those of the crew, and Trip responds that he'd like to believe her, but she is Vulcan and therefore not trustworthy. Up to this point, Trip has proved that he knows a Vulcan will use logic and facts when faced with the unknown, because these very characteristics annoy him. He exchanged numerous humorous glances with Archer and other crew members over T'Pol's insistently Vulcan behavior. But, once the pollen takes effect, his preconceptions about Vulcans and his subconscious distrust take over. He trusts Cutler, a human sharing his world view, over T'Pol who does not. Because T'Pol is a Vulcan and the only one who doesn't see the rock people, he believes she is conspiring with the aliens to kill the crew and destroy the first human space exploration project. He reveals that he has discussed such a possibility with Archer, telling Archer during one of the exchanges with the Captain that 'their' suspicions were about the Vulcans' are correct.

Had T'Pol remained on the ship and Archer on the planet, the crew would have spent the evening fighting the rock people, not each other. (If Archer and T'Pol were on the planet and Trip the one on the ship, would Archer have believed Cutler over T'Pol, even under the influence of the pollen?) The problems occur because T'Pol is Vulcan and Trip human and the two distrust each other's race, with the added complication of gender. Neither can understand nor accept what the other sees or doesn't see as reality. When T'Pol finally starts succumbing to the pollen, and after Trip grabs her scanner, she immediately accuses him of being human and far more unstable and dangerous than she previously believed. The exchange reveals all the stereotypes the two believe about each other based not on their own experiences but on preconceptions about the other's race.

Gender issues are less central in this episode than in subsequent explorations of these two characters, but your idea makes sense that Trip calls upon a male Vulcan he trusted to eliminate from his confrontation with T'Pol the complicated issue of gender. Trip gets along with everyone - he has no issues with alien women or alien women professionals (Unexpected, Oasis), older Vulcan women (Fallen Hero), or Vulcan men (Mr. Vallek, Kov in Fusion). He is even able to get the Vulcan captain in Breaking the Ice to talk about himself - just a couple of sentences, but in the dinner from hell that is remarkable. It seems so unlike Trip to dismiss anyone as unworthy of notice, even a Vulcan, but especially someone he knows, yet he dismisses T'Pol in SP1. Reed certainly didn't buy Trip's response that T'Pol couldn't be attractive as a woman because she is a Vulcan. Trip definitely has issues with T'Pol which involve both her gender and her race, which causes him to act out of character so often where she is concerned.

However, Trip and T'Pol's interactions, especially in terms of hierarchical power, is complicated by Trip's devotion to Archer and his perception that T'Pol will desert Archer at a moment's notice (Civilization, Detained). Muddies the waters. Gender, race, power, and one's love of one's captain - what does one do?

I'm going to think about T'Pol and her race/gender issues with Trip. Thanks for helping me rethink SNW.

posted June 18, 2002 17:12         

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"...certainly in terms of ratings I think in the first season that they're very pleased with the results on Enterprise. I think UPN has to be thrilled with the numbers."-- Michael Piller

posted June 18, 2002 17:16         

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Originally posted by Dennis Bailey:
Good thoughts. [b]Bucky, I really wish I could get you to import this stuff over to Testosterone Central or whatever you called it. [/B]

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Thanks, Dennis. Actually, I have been thinking about joining the boys club. I had wanted to respond to STC's reviews, but was swamped with end-of-term work when they came out. If the opportunity arises, I will.

posted June 18, 2002 17:17         

I agree that Tucker and Archer have done their part to isolate T’Pol—eyerolls and whatnot.

But I disagree that T’Pol has done nothing to warrant the human’s distrust except be logical. Up to this point in the series, when she gives Archer (or anyone) recommendations, she does so in ways that humans would see as confrontational. What? one hundred years of contact with humans and Vulcans haven’t learned to offer advice in a way that it will be accepted or at least listened to? T’Pol cautions Tucker in “Broken Bow” to “objectify other cultures” in order to know when to interfere and when not. Yet, one hundred years later the Vulcans still treat human emotion—including enthusiasm--with contempt. It’s not that Archer shouldn’t have listened to her about waiting—she gave him good advice—but that she contradicted him on the bridge asserting the superiority of Vulcan protocols. She, as much as the humans, insists on her difference and almost dares Archer to act as a human, i.e., emotionally. But her interactions with Archer on the bridge emphasize the racial/species divide. Gender doesn’t enter the mix until she confronts Tucker.

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The problems occur because T'Pol is Vulcan and Trip human and the two distrust each other's race, with the added complication of gender . Neither can understand nor accept what the other sees or doesn't see as reality. When T'Pol finally starts succumbing to the pollen, and after Trip grabs her scanner, she immediately accuses him of being human and far more unstable and dangerous than she previously believed. The exchange reveals all the stereotypes the two believe about each other based not on their own experiences but on preconceptions about the other's race.

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Excellent points.

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Gender issues are less central in this episode than in subsequent explorations of these two characters, but your idea makes sense that Trip calls upon a male Vulcan he trusted to eliminate from his confrontation with T'Pol the complicated issue of gender.

……snipping

It seems so unlike Trip to dismiss anyone as unworthy of notice, even a Vulcan, but especially someone he knows, yet he dismisses T'Pol in SP1. Reed certainly didn't buy Trip's response that T'Pol couldn't be attractive as a woman because she is a Vulcan. Trip definitely has issues with T'Pol which involve both her gender and her race, which causes him to act out of character so often where she is concerned.

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It would be so easy to slide into a shipper-style argument here—I’ve done it myself—but I think more is going on in Trip’s dismissal that simply denial. He has no difficulties with females of any species. He doesn’t even have difficulty dealing with Vulcans, even if he doesn’t trust them. But he has serious problems with T’Pol, not just female, not just Vulcan, but a visually desirable Vulcan female.

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However, Trip and T'Pol's interactions, especially in terms of hierarchical power, is complicated by Trip's devotion to Archer and his perception that T'Pol will desert Archer at a moment's notice (Civilization, Detained). Muddies the waters. Gender, race, power, and one's love of one's captain - what does one do?

I'm going to think about T'Pol and her race/gender issues with Trip. Thanks for helping me rethink SNW.

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You’re welcome, but you’re the one who egged me on into thinking about it myself.

Yes, it’s not a simple issue. I think the intersections of race, gender, power, and as you add, loyalty, are what make us notice Trip and T’Pol. These charged issues coalesce around these two in ways that complicate our understanding of their interactions. It’s not just flirting or teasing. It’s not just sniping. It’s not even just racial distrust because later episodes show them willing to depend upon each other’s expertise. It’s no wonder that some Trip fans actively dislike T’Pol, and vice versa. Their interactions are not simply “romantic” in any traditional sense, nor are they the other possibility of “meeting cute”—fighting first and loving each other later. The intersection of race and gender hinders that possibility

Bucky

posted June 18, 2002 17:21         

I think, in many ways, the creators of Enterprise have been surprised at how well the chemistry between all of the players has developed, Mayweather still being the fly in the ointment.

One can only hope that the Trip-T'Pol contrast never blurs, because it is highly entertaining... I especially enjoy the fact gives as good as she gets, for example, chiding him about his pregnancy in Oasis.

Another dynamic I hope they don't shy away from is the contrast between Reed and Trip, the proper, stiff upper lip Englishman versus the "howdy-ya'll" (a little Spongebob tribute there) Southerner.

posted June 18, 2002 17:32         

Good point about T'Pol's reaction in "Oasis" (my post was already so long, there was no way I was going to get that far into the season. ). Notice that while T'Pol maintains an external appearance of untouchability, it is she who brings up sex. And if, my memory is correct, always in Tucker's presence--usually about him. Once again there is a dichotomy between her subject and her appearance.

Bucky

posted June 18, 2002 17:34         

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Originally posted by T'Me:
All this falls into perspective when you realize this is all really about gender and race and power in our culture in this time and place.

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posted June 18, 2002 17:36         

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Originally posted by Bucky:

Notice that while T'Pol maintains an external appearance of untouchability, it is she who brings up sex. And if, my memory is correct, always in Tucker's presence--usually about him.
[This message has been edited by Bucky (edited June 18, 2002).]

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That's a good point. Despite the fact that she had a ready explanation -- "you weren't my first choice, but involving others would have meant revealing..." etc. -- that she also chose to use him as a confidant concerning her own personal life is probably significant.

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"...certainly in terms of ratings I think in the first season that they're very pleased with the results on Enterprise. I think UPN has to be thrilled with the numbers."-- Michael Piller

posted June 18, 2002 17:46         

Mutai? You listening?

Bucky

posted June 18, 2002 17:47         

"What struck me about Trip's exchanges with T'Pol was that neither he nor we can separate her female identity from her Vulcan identity. He reacts to her gender as well as to her race." This goes exactly to the point of Trip being brought up in a culture where one acts very much according to gender. T'Pol does not, as she is a logical being from a culture where gender has little or no effect on how one acts.

"Her silence creates a vacuum in the interchange which leaves Trip speechless. She has won the first battle by refusing to participate. Her encounters with Archer
up to this point have been those of two officials from two cultures, or races. But her exchange with Tucker was both Vulcan/human and male/female. Thus their encounter has been about power as it
intersects with race and gender, as will all their subsequent exchanges in the premiere." I think Trip is speechless here because he didn't expect T'Pol to react the way she did (or didn't). A human woman would be flattered that Trip would allow her to call him by his nickname in the more formal surroundings of Starfleet. It is a gesture that diffuses the sexual tension and power play that ineveitably come between two officers of different genders. However,
T'Pol does not play into Trip's hand because 1) that's not how she was raised and 2) this is a formal setting for her so she must keep
her emotional distance from Trip; that is how she maintains power over him. Also, this keeps the sexual tension alive between the two and that's maybe how T'Pol likes it: to keep Trip on edge and is a way to seperate herself from him. I too hope to see more of this dynamic in Season 2.

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Li (aka Mondo Rager-Tripper Trek Dudette) - Miss Thang

You'll be glad you visited Mess Hall-Enterprise

posted June 18, 2002 18:00         

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Originally posted by Li:
Great post, [b]Bucky! [/b]

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Thanks, Li!

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Here are some thoughts on your analysis....

"What struck me about Trip's exchanges with T'Pol was that neither he nor we can separate her female identity from her Vulcan identity. He reacts to her gender as well as to her race." This goes exactly to the point of Trip being brought up in a culture where one acts very much according to gender. T'Pol does not, as she is a logical being from a culture where gender has little or no effect on how one acts.

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Excellent point, and one I missed completely: the nexus of power as the intersection of race and gender occurs precisely because their cultures are so different and treat both race and gender--especially gender--relations differently.

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"Her silence creates a vacuum in the interchange which leaves Trip speechless." I think Trip is speechless here because he didn't expect T'Pol to react the way she did (or didn't). A human woman would be flattered that Trip would allow her to call him by his nickname in the more formal surroundings of Starfleet. It is a gesture that diffuses the sexual tension and power play that ineveitably come between two officers of different genders. However,
T'Pol does not play into Trip's hand because 1) that's not how she was raised and 2) this is a formal setting for her so she must keep
her emotional distance from Trip; that is how she maintains power over him. Also, this keeps the sexual tension alive between the two and that's maybe how T'Pol likes it: to keep Trip on edge and is a way to seperate herself from him. I too hope to see more of this dynamic in Season 2.

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Nice observation about T'Pol maintaining power in the sexual politics of the situation by keeping Tucker off guard--simply by not responding according to his cultural norm. Do you think that in later episodes his teasing her reverses this dynamic? IE is this an unconcious struggle to see who can unsettle the other?

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Originally posted by Data's child:
I was thinking about the juxtaposition of their actions and their words. What they are *doing* would normally be considered very sexual in nature. But what they are *saying* is antagonistic. Their movements are helping each other, their words are eliciting conflict. (This has probably been covered in a Trip thread, which I tend not to read.) It highlights, and might be considerd a microcosm of their relationship so far, their ability to support each other while at the same time hashing out issues that arise from the gender and racial differences.[B]

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I think we agree in our interpretations of this scene, [b]Data's Child. Their overtly eroticized behavior contradicts their antagonistic dialogue. I think B&B meant for us to catch that. I don't think they realized how accurately (?) (searching for the right word here) the scene captures all the tensions of gender, race, power and sex that swirled around these two characters for the entire episode. And, as a consequence, continues to swirl around them.

Bucky

posted June 18, 2002 18:31         

Excellent questions! Yes, I definitely do think a struggle is at work here. It didn't occur to me until I read your questions, but that's exactly what it looks like when Trip teases T'Pol. There's always an edge there, a challenge implicit in the teasing. It's not good-natured, "sunny-boy" Trip just teasing her to get a reaction, it's a type of challenge that tells T'Pol that she can't maintain this distance forever. She'll have to play into his hand at some point, but what the catalyst will be remains to be seen.

It also seems like with this teasing, Trip absolutely refuses to give in to a dominant female. Again, it's his cultural upbringing. He thinks, "She may be my superior officer, but she's not superior in our personal realtions." And he does want to get closer to her personally, although not necessarily sexually.

posted June 18, 2002 18:33         

quote:

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Originally posted by Bucky:
Nice observation about T'Pol maintaining power in the sexual politics of the situation by keeping Tucker off guard--simply by not responding according to his cultural norm. Do you think that in later episodes his teasing her reverses this dynamic? IE is this an unconcious struggle to see who can unsettle the other?

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I think it's definitely a struggle to unsettle each other...I'm not sure it's unconscious, though they may not be entirely cognizant of the whole racial/sexual dynamic they're playing into. I think that their interplay in later episodes does even the odds somewhat, though T'Pol continues to have a potent weapon in Trip's Unexpected pregnancy. (I think if she ever found out about Trip and Reed's experiences on Risa, she wouldn't hesitate to needle him with that either...to point out his flaws in logic, of course.) I remember that when Two Days & Two Nights aired, several people on the board commented on Trip and T'Pol's exchange in which he said he'd bring her back a souvenir; he definitely got too far up into her personal space while making the remark. He certainly hadn't concealed how he planned to spend his time on Risa, either, throughout the mini-arc. So I think the struggle does continue.

A terrific, thought-provoking post, Bucky!

EDITED for UBB code and excessive use of the word 'definitely'...
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"I hate temporal mechanics"--Miles O'Brien

[This message has been edited by T'Dax (edited June 18, 2002).]

posted June 18, 2002 19:02         

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Originally posted by myst123:
However, Trip and T'Pol's interactions, especially in terms of hierarchical power, is complicated by Trip's devotion to Archer and his perception that T'Pol will desert Archer at a moment's notice (Civilization, Detained). Muddies the waters. Gender, race, power, and one's love of one's captain - what does one do?

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myst123 you got me thinking about something that fuels race and gender power struggles: jealousy. Trip may very well be jealous of Archer and T'Pol's relationship simply because Archer is closer to T'Pol than he is. They have a genuine respect for each other's abilities, both regarding their duties on the ship and their respect for each other as honorable and trustworthy beings. Trip's fear that T'Pol will replace him as Archer's trusted friend and confidante might be manifesting itself as jealousy. This points again to the concept of the powerful female usurping his position with Archer, which in itself is quite powerful. Having the captain's ear is loaded with trust, respect and power. So the teasing that Trip does is to keep reminding himself and Archer that she is not "one of them" in terms of being human and male. It may seem immature, but it's the only way he knows how to fight back and keep things more or less on an even keel with someone refuses to play by the rules his culture created.

posted June 18, 2002 19:07         

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Originally posted by Bucky:
I’ve been thinking about race and gender in Enterprise since [b]Myst nagged me into finishing a comment I made two “Trip” threads ago. What follows is long and fairly academic in tone. It is not a thread about inter-racial/inter-species romance; Trek has done so much of both that I think that’s a moot point anyway. And it is NOT a Trip/T’Pol shipper thread although I can see how people might think so. Comments about how hot they are (or are not) together belong in the “T’Pol and Tucker” thread currently circulating.
Looking forward to your suggestions, rebuttals, alternate observations, whatnot.

Bucky
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[/B]

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posted June 18, 2002 19:14         

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The dynamic I’ve been looking at works best when they are on screen, rather than conversing over the communications system because it works on the dichotomy between their evident physical attraction contrasted with the dissonance of their verbal conflicts

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A big ditto to that sentiment. It's the invasion of personal space and body language that is so striking about Trip and T'Pol, that differentiates their sizzling chemistry from the more congenial, friendly chemistry she shares with Jonathan. Their words say one thing, but their body language doesn't match. How close did he get to her when he said that he was going to bring her a souvenir from Risa? Even in "Rogue Planet," didn't Trip stand a little closer than what western cultural standards dictate is comfortable personal space?

posted June 18, 2002 19:59         

I've always thought the personal space issues between Trip and T'Pol are unusual. Because they are a so formal, I would expect Vulcans to have a larger "personal bubble" than most humans. T'Pol, however, does not seem to mind standing extremely close to Trip. Yeah, I know, she's not supposed to feel or express emotion, but I still think it would be more natural for her to take a step back or something.

There was another thread a while back about old Vulcans on Enterprise. There does seem to be a lot of gray haired, older Vulcans in the series. It is possible that T'Pol is the first attractive, young female Vulcan Trip has ever seen. He is used to dealing with a certain type of Vulcan. He probably thinks he has them all figured out. Suddenly he is thrown into a situation where he must spend a lot of time with a very different type of Vulcan. She acts the same as all the others, but she sure doesn't look like them!

posted June 18, 2002 20:52         

Bucky, I agree that T'Pol is arrogant about the superiority of Vulcan protocols, but does that mean she is deceitful enough to conspire with the rock people? Trip does not see her as a colleague or a member of the crew, and that is her crime. Great observations about Archer, T'Pol and issues of race - yes, you are right, she does challenge Archer's authority citing Vulcan superiority to assert her power, and Archer's amused responses are his way of neutralizing her.

There have been some wonderful observations about T'Pol in these posts. Li wrote that by not responding to Trip's friendly overtures to be friends, "this keeps the sexual tension alive between the two and that's maybe how T'Pol likes it: to keep Trip on edge and is a way to seperate herself from him." T'Pol, then, is not only aware of the sexual tension she has with Trip, but uses it to control him. Furthermore as Bucky pointed out, she is the one who brings up the subject of sex with Trip or in Trip's presence. I find that she actually puts him on the defensive about his sexuality - in the sick bay scene in Unexpected, in the engineering room in Oasis, and in the cargo bay in Acquisition. That does keep him off balance and desperate not to lose the good will of Archer who may believe her. In Unexpected, at dinner, he is convinced T'Pol has been telling everyone about his pregnancy, and in Oasis, he is convinced T'Pol has told Archer he has behaved sexually inappropriately to Lianna (I think that is the woman's name). He asserts in both cases that he was a perfect (human) gentleman - he falls back on both his race and his gender to clear his name.

Trip "fighting" back by keeping her off balance through his flirting is also interesting. I never saw that as a power play before, but it does seem to fit.

Li, I have to think about the jealousy issue. I hadn't considered that.

Wood Nymph, I have always wondered why Trip and T'Pol stand so close together as well. My shipper instincts saw this as visual proof of their attractions towards each other.

Back to thinking about these issues. Thanks for this wonderful thread, Bucky! So much to absorb.

posted June 19, 2002 12:38         

quote:

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Trip "fighting" back by keeping her off balance through his flirting is also interesting. I never saw that as a power play before, but it does seem to fit.

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Yes. Yes it does. She seemed very taken aback by his Triaxian silk comment. What a wily way for him to "even the score."

Heck yes, I think T'Pol would use her sexuality to keep men a little off guard. What's the harm? These humans don't conform to the established rules she grew up with. A wily Vulcan lady learns how to improvise. Let's face it--Jon and Trip have been more than a teensy bit obnoxious to her at times.

posted June 19, 2002 01:40         

In SNW, Cutler attempts to converse with T'Pol, whom she thanks for selecting her as part of the away team due to travel to the hitherto uncharted Class-M planet. Cutler takes her nomination as a personal compliment. T'Pol has no truck with private sentiments, and declares that she chose Cutler because it seemed logical to have an exobiologist on a topographical expedition. (For the record, Cutler makes the same misassumption in 'Dear Doctor', when she thanks Phlox for choosing her on the mission to the Valakians' homeworld; he explains, somewhat more cheerfully than T'Pol, than he wanted and valued her expertise.)

Now, Trip commiserates Cutler for trying to chat with the unchattable. At this point in the series, it's widely assumed by the humans that Vulcans are simply unfriendly; that's how they make sense of Vulcan impassivity and stolidness. While they claim that they want to explore and exchange ideas with different alien cultures, they're actually imposing a few of their own preconceived notions on the races they've already encountered.

Contrast this early view with some of the developments in 'Breaking the Ice'. Here, it's T'Pol who has to explicate for the Vulcan captain human manners, including the peculiar human habit of engaging in dinner conversation (of course, by the time of The Undiscovered Country, Vulcans like Spock have no problem with talking during a meal). Here, too, Trip is comfortable in talking his mouth off to T'Pol even though he knows she won't talk back (there's that wonderful scene, where we first discover Trip's love of pecan pie, when he sees T'Pol reading a private message and asks her if everything is ok).

By the end of 'Breaking the Ice', T'Pol and the humans onboard the NX-01 have reached a mutual understanding and perhaps even respect for each other's otherness. After T'Pol counsels Archer on making a choice ("it is the human way"), we realize that she no longer simply dismisses human civilization, but has begun to try and make sense of it. And Trip and Archer have come away realizing that they still have a long way to go in battling their own prejudices against Vulcans (prejudices that are so extreme that Archer may well have let Reed and Mayweather die on that comet before he asked the Vulcans for help). What I want to say here is that the Vulcans and humans alike are responsible for seeing each other as exotic others, though of course from different vantage points: the Vulcans see themselves as superior; the humans have an almighty chip on their shoulder. The other thing I want to say is that poor T'Pol is so isolated that she's treated as a 'guide' by both humans and Vulcans alike. While she's treated as a prime example of anti-social Vulcan uncooperativeness by the humans, she's accused by her fellow Vulcans of spending too much time among a human population. It's only when we notice her alienation from both cultures that we recognize that alienation is a part of her personal habitus; it's part of her own nature.

posted June 19, 2002 02:11         

quote:

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Originally posted by Lo Pan:
The other thing I want to say is that poor T'Pol is so isolated that she's treated as a 'guide' by both humans and Vulcans alike. While she's treated as a prime example of anti-social Vulcan uncooperativeness by the humans, she's accused by her fellow Vulcans of spending too much time among a human population. It's only when we notice her alienation from both cultures that we recognize that alienation is a part of her personal habitus; it's part of her own nature.

---

Great observation! That's a side of T'Pol we should explore later.

posted June 19, 2002 02:19         

quote:

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Originally posted by Mutai Sho-Rin:
Wow, [b]Bucky, As a male engineer-type, I need to read that about twice more to absorb and understand it. This is a thread I'll download and save for my family to read after I get back home.

Title edited as requested.[/B]

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Thank you, Mutai. That's high praise indeed. There are an amazing number of intelligent, articulate posters on this board.

posted June 19, 2002 03:31         

You guys are wonderfully articulate, well thoughtful, and beautifully poetic!! Good points! Great points I haven't even thought of. I thank all of you for that.

So, and I didn't realize this until you guys pointed it out, but the reason that Trip truances onto T'Pol's personal space, even to flirt, is his way to assert himself to a woman, who he fears as too powerful for his own good. Am I getting this right? I wondered at his flirting and his closeness to her. I take it that you guys think that she freightnend hims a bit???
Makes me wonder why Hoshie's name keeps coming up in his mind as someone he constantly wants in his world. He praises her, and makes her his make believe wife. She simply is kind of meek to make him worship her, yet not to fear her. Though wait til he hears about her thoughts on shooting all torpedoes at once in "Sleeping Dogs" I do see a powerful power play between himself and T'Pol, but yet, I do see a subtle hint of sexual tension among them. I too, saw the erotic hints in the decon scene in "Broken Box" I think there is a very big hint of attraction between them, I can't help see this. His take charge, undie wearing, disarming charm and sense of humor side of the male, to her catsuit wearing, softness even for a Vulcan, oversearing like a mother, almost seems like a way to show the qualities of the male seeking a female and they do have the right assets. But she is his supior, and I can see, even me, that it bothers him.
I wonder about Reed though. She doesn't bother him. Maybe, he doesn't have a problem with her. He bypasses her powerfulness, and sees the feminine sexuality?!? I wonder if Trip has a domineering mother, where Reed's is meek. Trip is trying to get away from that, and Reed just sees T'Pol just exercising her role as commander, but isn't a threat.
I wonder though, if this combination of powerplay and deep subtle sexuality coming from both, will mix slowly and smoothly to make an interesting mix of passion and bonding.

posted June 19, 2002 03:46         

I thought the point T’Dax made about personal space was a good one, and I was impressed with the way Wood Nymph expanded upon it. The way that Tucker and T’Pol are presented to us shows him as continually violating her personal space, but she does not back down—or step back. Moving into someone’s space is one way to assert dominance. Trip does move close to her — several posters have noted how close he gets to her face when he promises to bring back a souvenir from Risa. These gestures do not look to me like overtly or intentionally aggressive acts. Instead, I think he is enacting what Lo Pan has observed is a culture norm for males in response to females. He is not saying “now I will assert my dominance by literally getting in her face, but he is following a pattern he is hardly aware of. But because she does not respond according to his expectations, either for females or for humans, he is again unsettled. However, as the season progresses, these exchanges more frequently come to a draw.

Myst and MR, I’m not so sure I agree that either T’Pol or Trip is completely conscious of the gender politics between them. It may well be logical to use what ever is in your arsenal, but T’Pol strikes me as Puritanical in her attitudes toward sex and restricted by a set of conventions that enforce celibacy. It is one thing for T’Pol to encourage her human/male crewmates to release their tensions through sex, since they are by definition limited in their ability to control their bodies or their urges. But it is something else entirely to adopt traditional manipulative behaviors that human women use to control men. Take the example of Bianca from “Taming of the Shrew.” While Kate flails around trying to obtain power by asserting her right to powe r-- and being continuing rebuffed and humiliated -- her sister, Bianca, manipulates all the men in the play (except Petruchio) into doing what she wants by pretending to be what they think they want her to be. Kate tries to fight the battle of the sexes through direct assault and loses; Bianca subverts the gender discrepancy and wins by co-opting it to her own desires. T’Pol could not be either of these characters: not Kate because T’Pol is in control or herself, not Bianca because she would find the subterfuge time-consuming and illogical. T’Pol was certainly capable of using Krem’s sexual desire against him--a classic female manipulation--but she seems unconscious of herself as an object of desire--even surprised and somewhat disgusted (look at her reactions to sexual suggestiveness in “The Andorian Incident” and “Acquisition”).

In fact, rather than presenting T’Pol as a wily manipulator, conscious of her desirability, B&B have present her as closer to a wise innocent--a virtual pornagraphic fantasy. I.E., she is visually desirable, but because she is unconscious of her desirability, men are free to gaze at her without guilt or shame. Reed, for example, is perfectly willing to admit he’s been looking by noting that she has “a nice bum.” Tucker, on the other hand, at first bats the concept away, then agrees sheepishly. The fact that for him “looking” has been a violation is telling. It suggests that he has still not sorted out the gender issues from the racial ones. He would rather not see T’Pol as a desirable woman. He wants to limit her to being Vulcan—someone he can deal with by teasing, by asserting, as Lo Pan says, his cultural norm. As Li observes there is an edginess and challenge in his teasing that is not mere flirting, but a suggestion that he is trying to assert control over a “dominant female” through traditional male behaviors.

This leads me to another question regarding race and gender: is there a disjunct in what happens between what the audience perceives to be the racial and gender issues and what the characters understand about those issues?

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lo Pan:
What I want to say here is that the Vulcans and humans alike are responsible for seeing each other as exotic others, though of course from different vantage points: the Vulcans see themselves as superior; the humans have an almighty chip on their shoulder.[/quote]

Well said. I like the idea that humans are as exotic to Vulcans as they are to us.

quote:

---

The other thing I want to say is that poor T'Pol is so isolated that she's treated as a 'guide' by both humans and Vulcans alike. While she's treated as a prime example of anti-social Vulcan uncooperativeness by the humans, she's accused by her fellow Vulcans of spending too much time among a human population. It's only when we notice her alienation from both cultures that we recognize that alienation is a part of her personal habitus; it's part of her own nature.

---

I’ve been thinking about T’Pol’s isolation, lately, too, that she really has no home anywhere. But I don’t want to get side-tracked right now. Why not start a thread, so I can think about it a post with a focused mind.

Bucky

quote:

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Originally posted by T'Dax:
EDITED for UBB code and excessive use of the word 'definitely'...

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“Definitely” one of my great sins!

posted June 19, 2002 03:49         

quote:

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I wonder though, if this combination of powerplay and deep subtle sexuality coming from both, will mix slowly and smoothly to make an interesting mix of passion and bonding.

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Oh God I hope so. Those two are hot enough to fry eggs with their back and forth pheremones.

posted June 19, 2002 03:55         

quote:

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Originally posted by MoulinRouge:
[B] Oh God I hope so. Those two are hot enough to fry eggs with their back and forth pheremones.

[B]

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Oh I'm sorry, my mind got dirty there for a second!! I'm be good, I promise!

posted June 19, 2002 03:58         

SlinkyJ, your post makes me think of times when my fingers couldn't type my ideas fast enough.

I agree that he is bothered by her status as his command superior, and that Reed is not. I think I dealt with this somewhat in my post ^^. IE Reed objectifies her sexuality, and thereby makes it safe--it's unattainable; therefore it is available for fantasy. As fantasy, it has no bearing on their working relationship. Trip, however, attempts to ignore T'Pol as a sexual being and is therefore far more 'discombobulated', to use MR's word, by her presence and by her power over him in the chain of command.

posted June 19, 2002 04:27         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bucky:
However, I'm not trying to apologize for Tucker, nor advocating for a romance (at least not in this thread). I'm trying to explicate what is happening on screen between him and T'Pol by considering how the issues of race and gender come into play.

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posted June 19, 2002 04:32         

Both are reacting from their inherent strengths - T'Pol strength over Trip is her gender and his over her is his race (they are on a human ship and she is outside). Again, I don't think either are aware of what is going on. I've said many times I can't figure out if Trip is flirting with T'Pol or if she is aware of what he is doing. I don't even know if she is attracted to him because she is so cool and remote.

I, too, think that T'Pol is very isolated from both Vulcan's and humans. I find her very lonely. In SNW, when Trip traps her at one point curled up on the cave floor, she looks so vulnerable.

SlinkyJ, I am thinking about Reed and Hoshi. My brain is shot for tonight .

posted June 19, 2002 04:49         

Bucky and WoodNymph, thanks for your comments. I suppose the main thing I wanted to point out in my post above is that exoticism isn't a personality trait or racial characteristic; usually, it's a label for something we haven't quite come to terms with, or made sense of, satisfactorily. Admittedly, I think the writers of Enterprise originally saw T'Pol as a sexy, coolly sensual member of an exotic alien species. But inevitably, as we learn more about 22nd-century Vulcan culture, Vulcans are gradually demystified. T'Pol, however, remains aloof and alien. This is quite noticeable, especially when we see her talking to more run-of-the-mill Vulcans (ya know, the ones who raise their eyebrows a lot and talk sententiously). A season on, we still don't know much about her or her aspirations.

T'Pol's no longer exotic to us, but she's still 'the Other' ('scuse the jargon). Does anyone else find that interesting?

posted June 19, 2002 05:04         

quote:

---

Originally posted by SpaceDust:
All I'm saying is that I don't think that Trip is totally aware of the fact that he has this gender-powerplay happening with T'Pol as he doesn't openly accept her gender over, or as part of, her race.

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Then we do agree.

quote:

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Originally posted by myst123:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that T'Pol was manipulating Trip, nor visa versa.

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Probably my mis-reading. Like you, my brain's getting fried.

quote:

---

Both are reacting from their inherent strengths - T'Pol strength over Trip is her gender and his over her is his race (they are on a human ship and she is outside). Again, I don't think either are aware of what is going on. I've said many times I can't figure out if Trip is flirting with T'Pol or if she is aware of what he is doing. I don't even know if she is attracted to him because she is so cool and remote.

---

Nice observation about the source of their strengths, Myst. I wonder if Lo Pan's idea about Vulcans seeing humans as the exotic other comes into play regarding whether T'Pol is attracted to him. However, I'd stress, and from the tenor of the last few posts, it sounds like most would agree, that Tucker represents that exotic other for T'Pol in a way that the rest of the crew do not. That goes back to a point I made in my original post that he is presented on the show as emphatically normal. His scenes with T'Pol show her returning his gaze as if he were a source of fascination. He is overtly, iconographically human male, yet she still cannot figure him out, she is still unsettled by the unexpected (!) nature of his responses and behaviors.

Similarly, she--as so many of you have pointed out--remains just outside his comprehension, perhaps his power, because her responses are not what he expects.

posted June 19, 2002 05:06         

While she's treated as a prime example of anti-social Vulcan uncooperativeness by the humans, she's accused by her fellow Vulcans of spending too much time among a human population. It's only when we notice her alienation from both cultures that we recognize that alienation is a part of her personal habitus; it's part of her own nature.

T'Pol's no longer exotic to us, but she's still 'the Other' ('scuse the jargon). Does anyone else find that interesting?

posted June 19, 2002 05:09         

quote:

---

Originally posted by myst123:

[b]SlinkyJ, I am thinking about Reed and Hoshi. My brain is shot for tonight .

[/B]

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posted June 19, 2002 05:12         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lo Pan:

[b]... exoticism isn't a personality trait or racial characteristic; usually, it's a label for something we haven't quite come to terms with, or made sense of, satisfactorily. Admittedly, I think the writers of [b]Enterprise originally saw T'Pol as a sexy, coolly sensual member of an exotic alien species. But inevitably, as we learn more about 22nd-century Vulcan culture, Vulcans are gradually demystified. T'Pol, however, remains aloof and alien. This is quite noticeable, especially when we see her talking to more run-of-the-mill Vulcans (ya know, the ones who raise their eyebrows a lot and talk sententiously). A season on, we still don't know much about her or her aspirations.

T'Pol's no longer exotic to us, but she's still 'the Other' ('scuse the jargon). Does anyone else find that interesting?[/B]

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Very insightful, Lo Pan, especially the points about exoticism and the way T'Pol retains that aura while other Vulcans--and other alien species do not.

I think this is tied to the conflicting messages of her sexual desirability and her remote aloofness. But my brain's fried for tonight. More manana.

Bucky

posted June 19, 2002 05:17         

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlinkyJ:
Talking about the human's unisexual uniforms, in and out of them, I am always refered, in my mind, back to the 'hotplate' scene, [I know, I still wont let it die!] and I think of Reed and his 'rejection' of Hoshie's supposed romantic overtures. Yet, after wowing him with wanting to shoot six torpedoes all at one in "Sleeping Dogs", we get at the end of this episode, with these two, definately in undies marking who's a male and who's a female, and he is resting his nakid back on her!!! He is comfortable to have this type of intimate contact, and yet, fully clothed, he gets all stammery!! Makes me wonder of the wonder of clothing.

---

Maybe, but since the now infamous hot plate scene these two have grown. Reed was confortable with Hoshi throughout 'Sleeping Dogs' (take target practice for example), not just the decon scene. Also, the only time he's really been stammery around her was the hot plate scene. He seems fine around her when it is in a professional or friendship context.

posted June 19, 2002 10:13         

As a long time fan of Trek, I will say up front that I really hate what they've done to the Vulcans on this show. While I wasn't crazy about the actress who plays T'Pol, I will admit she is improving. I do like seeing the growth and development of the character. While some interesting points have been made, I find I am most intrigued by T'Pol's isolation.

I always found the crews reaction to the doctor a direct contrast to their reaction to T'Pol. He is in some ways similar to T'Pol. The character doesn't seem to like being touched. I assume this is a cultural taboo, not a personal idiosyncrasy. Like the Vulcans, his species seems to have a seasonal mating cycle. The crew doesn't seems to have any problems respecting his cultural boundries.

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
Lo Pan stated

What I find fascinating is that the humans in Enterprise had little knowledge of intergalactic politics prior to the launch of the NX-01. Archer constantly asks T'Pol for guidance in this matter. T'Pol explicates for the human crew the vagaries of the interstellar political scene, breaking down information about the Andorians; the Klingons; and the aliens in 'Broken Bow' who have to break their children into breathing oxygen, to name just a few races we encountered earlier in the season. So, while the crew figures T'Pol as an example of exotic otherness, they're also becoming trained in her people's and her personal point-of-view. They're seeing things from her perspective even as they continue to distrust her and distance themselves from her. They listen to her even as they maintain a line of skepticism about all of her comments.
In SNW, Cutler attempts to converse with T'Pol, whom she thanks for selecting her as part of the away team due to travel to the hitherto uncharted Class-M planet. Cutler takes her nomination as a personal compliment. T'Pol has no truck with private sentiments, and declares that she chose Cutler because it seemed logical to have an exobiologist on a topographical expedition. (For the record, Cutler makes the same misassumption in 'Dear Doctor', when she thanks Phlox for choosing her on the mission to the Valakians' homeworld; he explains, somewhat more cheerfully than T'Pol, than he wanted and valued her expertise.)

---------------------------------------------
That was a great point, I had never noticed this.

I like that T'Pol is always in sick bay, for a while I wondered if they were going for some kind of hypochondriac character quirk for her. As the only non humans aboard, I like that the doctor serves as her advisor and sounding board. I'd love to see an almost envious reaction from T'Pol at Phlox's ease in interacting with the human crew.

posted June 19, 2002 11:18         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lo Pan:
On a side note, I'd love to know more about T'Pol's personal history. She is, as [b]Myst points out, very lonely; many of the mistakes she makes about the humans around her seem to arise from her apparent inexperience with social contact in general. Perhaps she's spent so much time with humans in recent years that she's withdrawn into herself...or maybe she's always been like this.

Bucky and WoodNymph, thanks for your comments. I suppose the main thing I wanted to point out in my post above is that exoticism isn't a personality trait or racial characteristic; usually, it's a label for something we haven't quite come to terms with, or made sense of, satisfactorily. Admittedly, I think the writers of Enterprise originally saw T'Pol as a sexy, coolly sensual member of an exotic alien species. But inevitably, as we learn more about 22nd-century Vulcan culture, Vulcans are gradually demystified. T'Pol, however, remains aloof and alien. This is quite noticeable, especially when we see her talking to more run-of-the-mill Vulcans (ya know, the ones who raise their eyebrows a lot and talk sententiously). A season on, we still don't know much about her or her aspirations.

T'Pol's no longer exotic to us, but she's still 'the Other' ('scuse the jargon). Does anyone else find that interesting?

[This message has been edited by Lo Pan (edited June 19, 2002).][/B]

---

That is one thing that strikes me about the three main ENT characters. We know little about Archer's background and Trip's background, but we know next to nothing about T'Pol's background. We DO have an idea of what Archer's and Trip's goals are: Archer wants to be respected by Vulcans and wants Humans to be reguarded by Vulcans as their equals. He wants Earth to be respected as an equal player on the galactic scene, and he wants to explore and serve Earth. In many ways, his dealings with aliens is shaped by his feelings of resentment and, possibly, inadequacy towards Vulcans.

Trip, one gets the impression, has somewhat less lofty goals. He wants to serve Earth, and he wants to be a good friend to Archer. He probably has a desire for a meaningful relationship with a woman that won't self-destruct as his other relationships have, and he, too, wants Earth and Humans to be respected. (This, however, is not as huge an issue to his mind as it is to Archer.) One also gets the impression, as others have stated, that he wants to unnerve T'Pol, to get her to show some emotion, and to get closer to her emotionally.

But we don't really know what T'Pol's goals are. I would suggest, however, from watching "Breaking the Ice," that T'Pol may have recently decided, consciously or not, that her goal is to establish something of an independent identity for herself that is not under the direct control of Vulcan tradition -- she seems to want to live life by her own rules, as seen by her willingness to break off her marriage, to visit the jazz hall and talk to emotional Vulcans in "Fusion," and by her willingness to ask very challenging questions of V'Lar as a youth in "Fallen Hero." Another one of her goals, as seen by her choice to remain on the Enterprise, may be to try to get Humans to respect Vulcans more. Somewhat contradictory. (Then, of course, is the possibility that she has an unconscious desire to become closer in some way to Trip. Of course, that could just be the shipper in me talking.)

Beyond this, we know little of her goals or her background; I cannot recall, but has it ever been stated just why she ended up on Earth, anyway? Is there the possibility that her relationship with her parents and other authority figures on Vulcan, such as its government or the Military High Command, is strained?

And just why IS she wearing that catsuit, anyway?

SpaceDust, I disagree completely with your interperetation of the SP1 scene. Trip DOES see T'Pol as a woman -- in fact, he sees her as very much a woman. He knows, on some level, that he wants her, and this threatens him. After all, she's a Vulcan -- he's not supposed to be attracted to one of "them." He was probably raised with something along the line of the old, "It's okay to be friend with blacks, but blacks and whites are never supposed to fall in love" routine. He's not supposed to want a Vulcan, and so the fact that he's finding himself both emotionally and physically attracted to her scares him -- so much so that he won't admit to himself, or to Reed, event the most obvious, and unemotional, part of his attraction to her: her physical appearance.

EDIT: Perhaps Trip's emotional nature would be something that might, I should add, make him more attractive to T'Pol. If she is trying to establish a life more independent of Vulcan tradition and opening up her mind to new possibilities, surely the idea of having a relationhip -- friendship or other wise-- with a Human may seem more appealing
than previously; not only would it be the ultimate statement of independence, but it may be more of a forum to allow her to be more liberal in her expression of her own emotions, as well.

Fascinating stuff, everyone. Insightful!

------------------
It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.

Niners aren't linear; we're everywhere.

[This message has been edited by Sci (edited June 19, 2002).]

posted June 19, 2002 11:52         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sci:
[b]SpaceDust, I disagree completely with your interperetation of the SP1 scene. Trip DOES see T'Pol as a woman -- in fact, he sees her as very much a woman. He knows, on some level, that he wants her, and this threatens him. After all, she's a Vulcan -- he's not supposed to be attracted to one of "them." He was probably raised with something along the line of the old, "It's okay to be friend with blacks, but blacks and whites are never supposed to fall in love" routine. He's not supposed to want a Vulcan, and so the fact that he's finding himself both emotionally and physically attracted to her scares him -- so much so that he won't admit to himself, or to Reed, event the most obvious, and unemotional, part of his attraction to her: her physical appearance.[/B]

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posted June 19, 2002 11:55         

quote:

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Originally posted by SpaceDust:
Maybe he does see her as a woman, but what I was trying to say is that he refuses to openly/publicly acknowledge this - that maybe he's trying to convince himself that he isn't or can't be attracted to her or that he doesn't fully realize that he is.

---

Okay, I see what you mean there, then, and agree completely. He's got it bad for her, but he doesn't want to admit it to himself. Now, if only T'Pol were as easy to read..

------------------
It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.

posted June 19, 2002 14:25         

However, I think you are right about our curiosity about T'Pol. The audience is able to reconstruct motivations for the human characters because they allowed to express emotions--as Lo Pan and others of y'all have noted, the humans act from a set of cultural standards that we understand. But the character of T'Pol is created to be distinct, different, to be motivated from a different set of standards. We don't need to be reminded of what we don't know, because we have never had the opportunity to construct a past. We don't know any more about the other characters than we do about T'Pol, but we are able to extrapolate (unconscious pun) motivations and biography. T'Pol's blankness prohibits us from doing that for her, so her defining characteristic, her Vulcan stoicism, creates a similar vacuum. She draws us in, but provides no answers.

I have always thought that although they looked almost like humans, Vulcans were among the most alien of the species created for Trek. Most aliens are "forehead" aliens. They look a little different, but their motivations are merely variations or exaggerations of our own: cf the Andorians and the Klingons (the Tandarans, the non-enhanced Suliban, etc.) Vulcans have always been presented as asserting their difference from humans in their behaviors, their culture, their values, their motivations. Such assertions by the Vulcan characters is what establishes T'Pol's difference in the audience's mind.

But *most* Vulcans we have seen in Trek have been male, have remained within the conservative strictures of the image created for them. Only Vulcan *females* are presented as overtly sexualized (opposed to the occasional abberant behavior as in "Amok Time"). Why this gender disparity? Is it because it is easier to dismiss the Vulcan males? Why does T'Pol generate such curiosity (and hostility) among viewers? Why do so many viewers see her as the sexual prize, hoping their favorite male character will "win" her?

Her silence, as you note, captures us. I think it is because the character is physically exposed in a way Vulcans have not been before (I was not a DS9 fan). Her silence gives her the same enigmatic aura that Vulcans are supposed to have, yet her physical exposure suggests an invitation that her silence contradicts.

Interesting thoughts, Sci

Bucky

posted June 19, 2002 14:27         

Here's a couple of things I'd like to see discussed:

1. Somewhere about 3/4 down I commented about the semi-pornographic representation of T'Pol that allows others to look at her quite literally as an object. Almost her entire body is available for view, but she is clearly unavailable as a sexual partner. I think this explains the difference between Reed's and Trip's reactions in SP1. I'd like to see more theoretical reaction to that suggestion. I'd also like to see more discussion of Archer's reaction. Like Trip, he does not look at T'Pol as a sexual creature. Both of them see themselves as her protectors against sexual predators (TAI, Acquisition). Any takers on that idea?

2. Does the audience see the gender/race dynamic differently than the characters within the play? IE how conscious were we of this dynamic before the discussion came up?

Any takers?

Bucky

posted June 19, 2002 16:56         

Our culture codes logic as masculine and emotion as feminine. In ENT, however, the locus of gender is confused: T'Pol represents the logic and Tucker the emotion, and thus the gender roles are not firm. Coupled with this is the notion of power: T'Pol outranks Tucker (power is masculine, powerlessness or passivity feminine). I think this is why Tucker has trouble dealing with T'Pol: instead of reacting, or reacting emotionally, she does not react at all, leading to what Bucky calls her "blankness" and her "isolation." Tucker, likely unconsciously, attempts to exert his own authority by invading her personal space, but again, she fails to react. In his/our culture, such an invasion would lead to a response: either an angry "Get out of my face" or a seductive "Why, hello there, handsome." She does neither (maybe on Vulcan, the notion of personal space does not exist), and he is left without a way to appropriately react.

In short, T'Pol is coded inconsistently according to the rules of our culture: she is a desirable but unobtainable woman who articulates her worldview via logic; and as a Vulcan, she has the power. The locus of destabilization is gender. Characters such as Reed objectify her in an attempt to classify her as female, and therefore as having a certain status and rank that they understand vis-a-vis the male. However, T'Pol is literally unobtainable: she is incapable of feeling love, and because of this, she is an absolutely safe object of desire. She becomes merely the passive object of the gaze, but that gaze can never sharpen to action without incurring violence. Yet all this is done without attempting to contextualize T'Pol's reactions as being embedded in Vulcan tradition. We know very little about Vulcan culture and must rely on T'Pol's example to infer what it is like. However, T'Pol is not reliable in this regard.

As Wood Nymph noted, T'Pol is not like other Vulcans: she play-acts; she rubs Ferengi ears; and, as Phlox notes, she has been able to stay on the ship, despite the stench, for months. In addition to gender, T'Pol also problematizes race, which she does in two ways. First, she problematizes race by not being a "typical" Vulcan, making it harder for Archer and Tucker in particular to assess her loyalties and motivations. Second, she stands aloof, separate, as is symbolized by the presence of a lone Vulcan on board a human ship. She is alienated from both human and Vulcan culture, and she reacts by clinging to her Vulcan-ness and to Vulcan tradition: she is skeptical of the Vulcans who seek to embrace emotion, but curious enough to attempt a mind meld; she judges the Vulcan ambassador harshly; she grants her superiors the authority to remove her from the ship without a fight.

posted June 19, 2002 17:40         

quote:

---

Originally posted by octave88:
While this is my first time posting on this forum, I've lurked for a while and have enjoyed many of the discussions.

---

Welcome, octave88! I lurked for a long time before joining in, too. There are a lot of really articulate, intelligent posters here (especially in the Trip threads ), and I was a little intimidated at first. Everyone here is really friendly, though.

You had some interesting insights into the crew's perceptions of Phlox versus T'Pol. I think they are more accepting of Phlox, because, despite some differences in cultural norms, Phlox acts more human than T'Pol. However, like T'Pol he has experienced his share of cultural isolation. "Dear Doctor" demonstrated that.

Edit for stupid comment.

posted June 19, 2002 20:04         

I don't think I can add much to this discussion, but I was intrigued by the suggestion (sorry...can't find the post)that part of the motivation for Trip's reactions to T'Pol (whether conscious or otherwise)was a form of jealousy. And while "jealousy" may sound like an immature reaction, it is a very human one when one's "power" is tied to an individual (Trip's friendship with Archer, who, as Captain, has the power). I'm not suggesting that Trip is particularly power-hungry, but he does enjoy a certain amount of reflected glory from being close friends with the Captain. If he sees T'Pol gaining more respect and friendship with Archer, he might feel threatened.

I hope the show will continue to explore some of these interesting dynamics. Even when the writing is sub-par, I think B&B have done an excellent job in creating a crew that has wonderful potential. I think I enjoy Enterprise so much because I "read" a lot into the stories and the interactions.....just as we're doing here. You don't have to watch mindlessly and react only to explosions, costumes and make-up. Like any book, good or otherwise, the stories and characters allow your mind to explore and expand on what is layed out before you.

posted June 19, 2002 21:33         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bucky:
2. Does the audience see the gender/race dynamic differently than the characters within the play? IE how conscious were we of this dynamic before the discussion came up?

Any takers?

Bucky

---

Hi Bucky! I'm going to try to tackle this one. The other question of Trip and Archer being T'Pol's protectors has been tackled nicely by others.

I believe that the audience does see the gender/race dynamic differently than the characters. We can see all sides of how Trip/T'Pol/Archer react to each other in a given situation. A lot of the reactions between the characters are unconscious or are created because of the motivations of the characters.

What are the motivations for Trip to react as he has? As far as reacting to the woman, this is a combination of hormones and cultural indoctrination as to how one should act around women. If you notice, he's basically respectful of her and doesn't tease her when Archer's not around. Reacting to the Vulcan is loaded with racial memory and present day opinion of aliens and how the Vulcans have kept humans down-although it's not as big a part of him as it is with Archer. Reacting to the officer: this is how he was trained and he knows he must respect her position, yet he often doesn't because he finds (or believes) her actions to be contrary to what Archer and Starfleet want. We know that Trip is motivated to make Archer's best interests his main goal-the man is his captain and his friend. He doesn't want to lose both. As far as his motivations toward T'Pol-we don't know what those are yet. It's hard to extrapolate because he acts somewhat contradictory toward her, as mentioned before.

Archer seems to be reacting to T'Pol with a firmer idea of what he wants-he wants an efficient XO who won't betray him to her people and will back up his decisions. So he has treated her with respect (mostly) and afforded her the station (rank) that she occupies on the ship. He has taken good control of his hatred of Vulcans to let her become what she must and what she has the capability of becoming because it is for the good of the ship, his mission and humanity. I don't think her gender is an issue so much as her race is to him.

There are so many ideas flying around here about T'Pol and whether she is a "wise innocent." I'm not sure she is unaware of what her gender does to Trip. She may be very well aware of it and is using her knowledge of gender relations to keep him off guard. Maybe it's something she read about on her stay on Earth: a book on gender relations and how human use them for many different things: social settings, military settings, etc. She is very aware of being the only Vulcan on board a human starship and that she is not only "Other," but a member of "Others" whom humans are angry at for a variety of reasons. She needs to stay apart from them because of this reason, because she wants to retain her cultural upbringing, and, as mentioned before, because she may very well be a loner-used to being considered different not only by the humans of course, but by her own people. It's possible this is how she learns, also, by observing and not interacting as much as she can. She is the great experiment: the first Vulcan aboard a human ship. She is truly the bridge by which human/Vulcan interactions may very well depend on. It's quite a responsibility, one that she can't share with others.

How conscious is the audience of all of the above? I'm sure we were somewhat conscious of it, what with all the 'shipper and "dissect this character" threads. We may not have thought of it in exactly these terms, tho'. I certainly did not until you put the Questions to us, Bucky. Then, everything came pouring out, probably because we had observed this, just hadn'y been consciously aware of it!

Whew!! How long did that take me to write? Good thing I'm not terribly busy here at work!!

posted June 20, 2002 03:21         

Reed and Trip discuss T'Pol twice, on SP1 and 2D2N, and both times in terms of sex. In SP1, all members of the crew are discussed over the course of the episode. After the two get drunk, Reed finally makes reference T'Pol, how attractive she is, especially her bum. Trip rejects that assessment, but in the end toasts Subcommander T'Pol. To Trip, she is still unavailable, she is still a Vulcan, she is still an officer - all the things that Li points out for us. To Reed she is desirable, perhaps because of her uniform.

Reed is very military minded, loves structure and discipline, which makes T’Pol and her alien uniform attractive as a ‘type’ but not necessarily as an individual. In contrast, as Hoshi sheds her anonymous Starfleet uniform in Sleeping Dogs, Reed allows her more authority. His issues are not so much with race as with military status. He is very responsive to military protocol and would never think of challenging T’Pol the way Trip did in Civilization. But when he responds to a woman without a uniform, he responds to Hoshi.

Trip never deviates from calling his friend, Archer, Cap'n. To Trip, the rank and the uniform creates a barrier with both Archer and T'Pol, but one he is affectionate and the other he is not. Starfleet is his comfort, just like pecan pie. He worked for years to get where he is, and he isn’t going to let an alien woman derail him.

Do their reactions to T'Pol reflect more about the 2 men than about her? And why is she the one to highlight that difference? In 2D2N, Trip does not believe T'Pol would go seven years without sex, while Reed comments that T'Pol is very disciplined. This exchange says more about the two men and their ideas about T’Pol than about T’Pol herself.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Li:

There are so many ideas flying around here about T'Pol and whether she is a "wise innocent." I'm not sure she is unaware of what her gender does to Trip. She may be very well aware of it and is using her knowledge of gender relations to keep him off guard

---

posted June 20, 2002 15:18         

I had noticed the personal spacing issues between T'Pol and Trip and commented in another thread on the sexual implications (real or perceived). There is a good body of research in the cross-cultural management and psychology lit on the spacing of different cultures, the implications of violation, etc. Most of this shows that the reaction to a violation of space in unconscious. Interacting individuals will tend to move closer or farther away to establish the spacing that their cultural upbringing feels is appropriate.

posted June 20, 2002 17:13         

quote:

---

Originally posted by myst123:
Li, I don't think that T'Pol is aware of what she is doing, any more than Trip is. That is what I feel is so fascinating about these two - they are communicating via their gender, race, and culture, which is very intimate yet not a vocabulary they know or we know.

---

Thanks, myst123 for commenting on my post. To be honest, I thought that maybe I wasn't clear enough about what I was trying to say. I'm glad you understood what I was attempting to convey.

I presented the idea that you mentioned above just to see what kind of reaction it would generate and if my suspicions about T'Pol had any merit to others in the audience and how they see her. I'm still a little conflicted about whether or not T'Pol is not reacting to Trip purposely or because of her culture. I'm leaning toward the idea that this his how she acts because of her culture more than anything. Also, I'm sure she's learned over the months how to push Trip's buttons and does it ever so subtley. Of course, we've got her comments to Tripin "Oasis" that weren't very subtle about what types of problems his interactions with alien females "produce." So I guess that blows my theory out of the water!

Interesting take on Reed. I agree with your assessment that he finds a 'military type' of woman who's all about discipline and protocol (T'Pol) attractive. I disagree with your idea about him responding to a woman (Hoshi) in a military setting or situation because she's not in uniform. In "Sleeping Dogs" I thought that he let Hoshi fire all the torpedoes because T'Pol agreed with her on how best to improve their situation. Once T'Pol gave her approval, Reed relented because his superior officer had essentially given the order. She was still his superior officer whether in or out of uniform and he recognized that. Please let me know what you think of this idea.

posted June 21, 2002 12:44         

I've been mentally reviewing some of the other Treks, and one thing springs to mind--that Enterprise is doing more to actually examine the race-gender issue than any of the others. Why? Because when they did have interracial couples, although some attempt was made to include something of their individual cultures, in general it seemed that the solution to the couples' differences was to make them more human--to bring them to the expectations and roles of the human race as defined by Starfleet regulations. Even the conflicts over the marriages seemed to be on a very human basis. So many of the 'fights' were over the same kind of issues that are faced in weddings on "Friends". I don't mean to say that whether or not the wedding party will be naked (Trek, not Friends) is not worthy of intense discussion, but surely there was more to be considered.

They worked on the gender part (okay, there is some question about how this would have worked out with the Dax history) but--and I realize that this is subjective--for the most part the problems created by race-gender were treated with less intensity that we've had just over the daughter of a Tennessee fan sitting with her Alabama fan boyfriend at a football game. (Think--no. No war envisioned by the creators of Trek could compare to that.)

Despite Worf and Jadzia Dax's off-camera sexual gymnastics that were linked to Klingon activities, most of what we saw was a Klingon tamed in the mold of Starfleet humans and a Trill who had largely discarded her traditions and fit quite easily into the human Starfleet society. Torres and Paris--her threatening to do dire things to the doctor during childbirth was a human reaction, not a Klingon thing, BTW--could have moved into a Milwaukee subdivision without disturbing the flow for all the Klingonness we saw being incorporated into their union. Seven and Chakotay--she was working at returning to being human, he largely discarded his Maquis and tribal identities for Starfleet officer.

There seemed to be no recognition that there were some very real and some very basic differences between the races and genders and that homogeneity might not be the best solution. T'Pol, even with pecan pie and kids' drawing is managing to maintain her essential Vulcaness--and whatever else Trip is, he isn't your typical Starfleet officer.

[Putting on brakes] Too far into that long post already!

The original purpose of this post was actually to compliment the excellence of the topic and toast the insight of the replies--or vice versa. I do so now.

------------------
You're just jealous because I'm the only one that can hear the voices.

"Commander Tucker, you've been a bad boy. Go to my room!"

posted June 21, 2002 06:02         

Octave88, you make an interesting point about Phlox who is also clearly an “Other” for the crew both in terms of his appearance and his culture. Their reaction to him makes a nice contrast with their reaction to T’Pol and, I think the contrast re-emphasizes gender in relation to race and power. Although the crew hasn’t accepted him completely--note his isolation in the Mess Hall in “Dear Doctor”--they still seem more willing to accept him--perhaps because he gives the appearance of accepting them. Cutler even initiates a flirtation. In contrast, T’Pol participates in social events only when they are required by her official position. While at least one crewmember finds her sexually attractive, none have initiated a contact beyond the rather formal friendship she has with the captain.

But Phlox is a Denobulan and a male while T’Pol is a Vulcan and a female. Denobulans may be more advanced than humans, but they hold a lateral position in relation to power. Phlox is Self-sufficient--he does not require validation or agreement from the humans nor the Vulcans, but he is equally willing to accept both. Furthermore, as a male character, he fulfills audience expectations about the unmarked gender for a doctor. IE we might have noticed that he is a different species, but we didn’t make a special note that he is male. On the other hand, as several posters have noted, T’Pol is from the power-dominant species, the Vulcans. And, her costume insures that we are never allowed to forget her gender. I’ll talk about this point more when I respond to the other posters, but thanks, Octave88, for bringing it to our attention.

Alatheia, I believe it was Myst who first brought up jealousy, an idea expanded on by Li. You’re right, we can’t ignore the possibility that Trip fears that T’Pol will replace him as the primary confidante, and the possibility that he will lose power and influence because of such a change. I’ve never seen Trip as particularly power hungry, per se, but I do think he would feel a personal loss if he no longer had the captain’s ear. He may even be unconscious of the benefits he derives from the friendship, because, as far as I can tell, he does not trade off them.

T’Prylla, excellent call on the cultural reactions to space. We would expect T’Pol to back away from Trip when he moves closer to her. The fact that she does not would normally be perceived as an offensive maneuver--rather than the defenisve retreat we anticipated--yet T’Pol remains neutral. Once again her actions are at variance with our cultural norms. She appears to challenge, but does not follow through. Since she neither retreats nor advances, Trip has no body of knowledges as to how to react, and they reach a stalemate--or he retreats. Thus there is yet another cultural instability between them.

Bucky

ps I’m going to submit this much, and start a new post for the rest of my responses.

posted June 21, 2002 06:04         

Wood Nymph Thanks for taking up Archer’s cause here. I do feel that we cannot leave him out of the discussion, especially since he is the capatin and power is an integral part of this discussion. Great point about the way he exerts traditional male roles such as protection of females as a way to assert human power over his Vulcan ‘observer.’ Thus Archer utilizes the dyanamic as a way to stabilize and regain power, while Trip remains off balance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Li:
Thanks, [b]myst123 for commenting on my post. To be honest, I thought that maybe I wasn't clear enough about what I was trying to say. I'm glad you understood what I was attempting to convey.

Interesting take on Reed. I agree with your assessment that he finds a 'military type' of woman who's all about discipline and protocol (T'Pol) attractive. I disagree with your idea about him responding to a woman (Hoshi) in a military setting or situation because she's not in uniform. In "Sleeping Dogs" I thought that he let Hoshi fire all the torpedoes because T'Pol agreed with her on how best to improve their situation. Once T'Pol gave her approval, Reed relented because his superior officer had essentially given the order. She was still his superior officer whether in or out of uniform and he recognized that. Please let me know what you think of this idea.[/b]

---

Li, I thought Myst meant that Reed could listen better to Hoshi once she was out of uniforrm and he was less conscious of the difference in their rank. Notice that in “Sleeping Dogs” they are all in the same unmarked outfit--grey longjohns. Of course Reed would never forget the rank distinctions--he has been too firmly established as valuing military protocols for that to be believable and I don’t think Myst intended that. However, costume does affect how we react to people. With the visual distinctions erased, the three work more as a team, Hoshi is able to assert herself and Reed and T’Pol are able to listen.

I find very intriguing the problem of how much T’Pol understands her power as a sexually desirable woman. She frequently makes sarcastic remarks to Trip, but does she do that as a female or as a Vulcan? Is she conscious that the intersection of her race and gender creates a special tension whenever she calls attention to his behavior? I wonder how much of her impact on the characters--especially Trip and Archer--is an accident of her costume. I suspect that the producers want to present her as unconscious that her physcial appearance might be alluring--that was my point about a pornographic subtext. Yet they put her in enough situations where she clearly does know that at least other aliens--Andorians, Ferengi--find her sexually attractive that it’s hard to sustain the idea that she doesn’t know. Like you, Li and Myst, I remain undecided, but I suspect that uncertainty was planned.

Myst, your comment: “That is what I feel is so fascinating about these two - they are communicating via their gender, race, and culture, which is very intimate yet not a vocabulary they know or we know.” This is very insightful and helpful: they are trying to communicate, but are hindered because they don’t realize the messages are encoded in a “language” they don’t yet know--a cultural pigin of body-language.

quote:

---

Originally posted by myst123:
Do their reactions to T'Pol reflect more about the 2 men than about her? And why is she the one to highlight that difference? In 2D2N, Trip does not believe T'Pol would go seven years without sex, while Reed comments that T'Pol is very disciplined. This exchange says more about the two men and their ideas about T’Pol than about T’Pol herself.

---

Myst this and your observations about their comments in “Shuttlepod One” really caught my attention. Isn’t that the crux of the debate about race and gender? That there is not some essentialist truth about either race or gender, but only what we project onto a situation?

Bucky

posted June 21, 2002 10:06         

I'm not entirely certain what I think about the idea that Trip is trying to establish some sort of dominence over T'Pol. The impression I get much of the time is that he's trying to get her to show some respect towards him -- which, of course, may or may not tie into a desire for dominence or a desire for respect.

As I'm looking over this thread, it occurs to me that everyone should pause and consider their own situation in life and how that would prejudice their judgement. I, for instance, am a white Protestant teenaged male -- in other words, for me, ideas about discrimination, racial or sexual, are abstractions, because I've never experienced them, which makes it harder for me, necessarilly, to identify some of the subtle ways in which it might manifest itself. On the other hand -- and I'm not saying this is necessarilly true of the people here, this is just one possible example -- some people who HAVE experienced these might be tempted to identify certain aspects of the show as being indicators of Character A trying to dominate Character B on the basis of gender or race or whatever, when that may not be the case at all.

One must, in short, be mindful of how one's experiences color one's interperetations of the characters' actions.

One thing that comes to mind -- the association of assertiveness with masculinity and being passive or submissive with femininity. These are not associations I've grown up with (possibly as a result of my age?); these things would never have occured to me. Fascinating insights, though I don't necessarilly think that those associations are necessarilly ones our culture makes as often as it used to.

srtrekker makes an excellent point about the Humanization -- some would say Americanization -- of many interracial couples and characters on Trek. (That was one of the reasons I never liked Jadzia all that much, in fact; she was essentially an early 21st Century American liberal with spots on her back! She never felt alien enough!) What I would hope, in the course of the characters' lives on ENT, would be that there would be cultural exchanges, but that no character would abandon his/her culture and turn into a American Human by default -- though, considering that there's only one non-American in the cast, and only two ethnic minorities, I suppose that this may not be an issue for this series. For example, I would hope that T'Pol would learn some of the value of emotion and perhaps losen up a bit (this already is happening -- see her teasing of both Trip and Archer in "Acquisition"), but I would also hope that Archer and Trip would begin to see some of the value of the Vulcan way of doing things, and perhaps integrate some of it into their behavior.

Fascinating stuff, folks! If only the writers would make these things a bit more overt on the show....

------------------
It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.

Niners aren't linear; we're everywhere.

posted June 21, 2002 16:21         

The posters in this thread have been using terms like "dominance," "power," "control" in both a literal and a figurative sense, but I get the impression that you are responding only to the literal. Yes, it is true that the older posters (me included) have probably suffered more than the younger ones from the real consequences of gender politics (I was given a typing test for the clerical pool--failed--by the same company that put a male classmate (same college, same English major, lower GPA) into a management trainee program). It is true that the specifics of the job situation have changed. (Now, I'm middle management and, by luck of the draw, I have a male graduate student handling office chores this summer.)

But we can acknowledge that some aspects of the male/female gender dynamic have changed (a greater variety of employment is open to both males and females) and still see that gender roles are culturally defined. In fact, the change itself provides a prime example of how culture defines gender roles. When I was growing up a woman in power, while not unheard of, was as bizarre as a Gorgon, and just as welcome. Now, young men and women your age fully expect to have all career opportunities available to them.

Thus cultural expectations often define and limit our behavior in ways that we are completely unaware of. How we deal with power relations between two or more people is one of those issues. Psychologists and sociologists have studied how members of groups will jockey for power. In the US at least men and women establish power relations differently, but in mixed gender groups, so far the male dynamic tends to prevail.

Thus, (long preamble to a short point!) when we are discussing Trip trying to establish control or power over T'Pol--to 'dominate' her--we are not talking about an overt or necessarily conscious action. In fact, much of the discussion at this end of the thread has been about how much-- or even whether-- Trip and T'Pol are conscious that their interplay is, in fact, a power struggle. Several posters have pointed out that Trip's behavior toward T'Pol is culturally defined both in terms of the race issue and the gender one: “this is how humans act toward those who are different/this is how males act toward females.” That is, we understand his actions whether or not we approve of them.

But T'Pol has been created to be from a different species with a different set of cultural norms. The audience has some pre-conceived ideas about how Vulcans should behave: they should be "logical;" they should appear more physically still and calm than humans; they should not reveal emotions through facial or physical gestures. This has worked well in the past when Vulcans as main characters have been male. The "conversation" has been about emotions versus logic. But by making T'Pol female and then costuming her to emphasize her sexual desirability has introduced a tension and a focus that I think they did not intend. "Let's have a Hot Vulcan" seems like a simple enough substitution, but it has created a swirl of interest around the character because she cannot be so easily defined (and thus, dismissed) as the male Vulcans were. And I think the same point goes for older female Vulcans as well. It is her sexuality that creates the instability.

Notice how audience reaction on this board frequently judges her behavior by Human (read American) standards. Early posters frequently called her a "bitch." Some still do (and this has nothing to do with whether the actress is playing the character well). T'Pol is a "bitch" because she does not exhibit the audience's expectation for sympathetic understanding of the human perspective. Yet she can look that way (ie 'unsympathetic') simply by following the playbook for Vulcan behavior.

In past Trek, 'Vulcan' almost always equaled 'male'. If there was a power struggle--one for dominance in the group, the crew (not the larger political struggle we see in "Enterprise")--this played out according to traditional roles. Now T'Pol's gender becomes an issue in that power struggle. Tucker usually relates to her more as a 'female' than as a 'Vulcan.' Sometimes he reacts to both, but he rarely, if ever reacts to her purely as a Vulcan.

This is where I think his reactions are different from Archer's. I think Archer is written and portrayed to show him reacting to her first as a Vulcan, and then as a woman. As several people have noted (Wood Nymph and Space Dust especially), Archer is protective, even courtly toward her. Their conversations, then, are about the larger Human/Vulcan political dynamic (the one outside the limited world of the crew). They can move to greater understanding between them precisely because he does not expect her to act like a female. As a consequence there is not disjunction between the gender politics and the interspecies politics that we find in her relations with Tucker.

posted June 21, 2002 17:11         

thanks for inviting me to post my remarks about moody-loners-Archer/T'Pol/Malcolm versus Walt-Whitmanesque-Accepting-All-Trip
but this thread has far outreached my commonplace comments.

It is one of the great threads.

But I'd like to add something about the famous (to us ) T'Pol's-breasts-in- Archer's-Face scene. So Archer's tied up with an incredibly nubile and shapely woman who is a Vulcan; when they wiggled around and stood face to face, they were close as lovers, and I fancied I felt a little emotional seismic shift there. Archer and T'Pol were surprised to be conscious of each other's bodies. But it wasn't just that; IMO "Shadows of P'Jem" is Jolene Blalock's finest hour so far. I felt she, the actress, was being used by TPTB in a unpleasantly degrading way. "Here, stick those big things of yours in Archer's face!"
But, THROUGH SHEER WILL, the actress made it irrelevant. She suffered and was beautiful (I've mentioned before, she was a lot of Joan of Arc in that ep). And Archer didn't apologize or make a little joke about any of the pummeling he puts her thorugh. It could be that he is intimidated by the realization that she isn't just a symbol of Vulcan-ness, but a being with a whole array of symbols he would have to respond to. Her complexity becomes an emblem of the complexity of the new world where he is going.

The THROUGH SHEER WILL thing is something I admire. I always felt that the actor who played Captain Jean-Luc Picard (my mule lips are unworthy to speak the actor's sacred name) THROUGH SHEER WILL made it clear to us that he was one of the most beautiful and sexiest creatures in the universe, although our social conditioning would have it otherwise. (Even TPTB didn't see it, since they were clearly grooming Frakes as the stud-in-residence. At first.)

posted June 21, 2002 20:12         

quote:

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Yet all this is done without attempting to contextualize T'Pol's reactions as being embedded in Vulcan tradition. We know very little about Vulcan culture and must rely on T'Pol's example to infer what it is like. However, T'Pol is not reliable in this regard.

---

This is a very good point that fits in with much of the way the discussion has gone in the latter part of the thread. Not only is T'Pol from a different culture with a different set of norms, she is a-typical for her own culture (a point first made by Wood Nymph). As a consequence neither the characters within the drama nor the audience watching the drama is entirely certain whether T'Pol acts according to her culture, her gender, or an idiosyncratic personal code. Because of this destabilization, the character takes on a life beyond her creators' intentions and becomes a focus of anxiety for both the characters and the audience. What does she mean? How do we define her? We get no answers and so we press to impose a definition upon the character, yet because she keeps inverting the definitions of "Vulcan," "female," "officer" none of these external definitions stick.

quote:

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Originally posted by srtrekker:
While I have a LOOONNNGG post (mostly composed during a trail ride that defies description) that isn't finished yet and could well turn into a feature length film, I did want to comment that I think both Trip and T'Pol know exactly how to push each other's buttons, I just don't think they know why they are compelled to do it.

---

I agree with you, srtrekker, on both counts. Knowing how to get a rise out of someone doesn't mean you know why you want to get a rise out of them.

You make an interesting point as well about the tendency of Trek series to resolve the difficulties of inter-racial/interspecies relationships (political/personal/romantic) through homogenization. That's a very American solution: get everyone to act like white, middle-class, middle Americans and the problems will disappear. Were you on the board when DimensionKeeper was still posting? One of his most frequent themes was the limitations of such a narrow definition of humanity, and he frequently asserted that "Enterprise" would do better service to diversity by emphasizing the differences and the specific cultural identities of the characters rather than their similarities. T'Pol and Phlox are the only characters permitted to have different cultural values, but the differences are either a source of humor (Phlox) or disdain (T'Pol).

I hope you do post the script to your feature length movie-and I'd love to hear the details of what sounds like the trail ride from hell.

[b]Miss Sunbeam[b], thanks for your compliment. Please, go ahead and post your thoughts about "moody-loners-Archer/T'Pol/Malcolm versus Walt-Whitmanesque-Accepting-All-Trip." As I recall, they were right on target.

You make a good point about what an actor adds to a character. I hadn't thought about it before, but you are right: Blalock manages to invest T'Pol with dignity throughout the tied-up-and-fall-down scene from "Shadows of P'Jem" despite the requirements of the script.

Bucky

posted June 22, 2002 16:05         

***must absorb stimuli***

posted June 22, 2002 19:08         

quote:

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Originally posted by static warp bubble:
ay caramba

***must absorb stimuli***

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Come on, guy. Jump in. Get your feet wet.

posted June 22, 2002 20:15         

In "Fusion", during the exchange between the Vulcan male who takes an interest in T'Pol (Name ?) in the mess hall, he mentions that he can sense her emotions. Also, in "Fallen Hero", the Vulcan ambassador mentions that she can sense T'Pol emotions regarding her.

Now, do you think that maybe T'Pol can sense Trip's emotions regarding her? She's already established that she's interested in the human species (Fusion) and wants to maybe explore her emotions (Fusion). Do you think that maybe, deep down, she's using the relationship that she's developed with Trip, to come out of her emotional closet somewhat? That maybe, she can feel almost human when she interacts with Trip?

Sorry again if I missed it, I promise to read the whole post when I get home...

posted June 22, 2002 21:38         

quote:

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Originally posted by AstroDee:

In "Fusion", ....the Vulcan male who takes an interest in T'Pol (Name ?) in the mess hall....mentions that he can sense her emotions. Also, in "Fallen Hero", the Vulcan ambassador mentions that she can sense T'Pol emotions regarding her.

Now, do you think that maybe T'Pol can sense Trip's emotions regarding her? She's already established that she's interested in the human species (Fusion) and wants to maybe explore her emotions (Fusion). Do you think that maybe, deep down, she's using the relationship that she's developed with Trip, to come out of her emotional closet somewhat? That maybe, she can feel almost human when she interacts with Trip?

---

Ooooooh, AstroDee! This is an extremely juicy point. But as you're talking about the characters as characters--as if they were real-- (rather than looking at their gender behavior objectively from the outside) this is really a Trip/T'Pol shipper argument. [However, I like this argument, and I'm going to save it for future 'shipper wars'. ]

posted June 23, 2002 23:31         

Trip has been teasing/flirting with T’Pol and invading her space in a, perhaps, unconscious desire to unsettle her, but with no results (although I still think my idea that T’Pol keeps Trip off balance by making him defensive about his sexuality could be a counter to his behavior). She doesn’t respond directly to these acts. However, she does respond to his arguments based upon emotion. When it comes to power, Trip doesn’t try to persuade her - he confronts her - and this she seems to be able to absorb and process. In BTI, one time when the argument wasn’t based upon power but was still related to race, Trip asks T’Pol what it is she wants to do, to get married or to stay on Enterprise. She is free to chose what she wants to do. T’Pol states that she has to follow custom, and when Trip confronts her about why she asked him his opinion about the marriage when she had already made up her mind to follow through, she said it was a mistake. Once again the argument appears to be over, with T’Pol adamant about her position on the issue, only to have her reverse her decision clearly based upon Trip’s words that she is free to chose.

T’Pol listens to Trip and is persuaded by him perhaps because he is so consistent about his ideas of loyalty and she finds logic in that. Perhaps she detects self-interest when he is flirting/teasing her and getting into her personal space, but when self-interest isn’t his sole motivation (of course he wants the mission to succeed and Archer to be safe for selfish reasons as well), she can better understand his position and act upon it.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.

posted June 24, 2002 23:15         

Gender:
I hate to point out what's obvious - but Vulcans aren't a different race from humans, they're a different species. A person from a different race may act differently from me but that's the result of culture and experience, underneath we're 'the same'. Someone of a different species, however, isn't 'the same'. They could be quite different biologically, which could lead to vast differences in the way they act that I could not possibly relate to.

Now, the only situation that's equivalent to that is when I deal with someone of the opposite sex. The idea that men and women are from different planets is an old one; before 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus' there was 'Men are of the Sun and Women of the Moon'.

Most of our cultural perspective is male 'oriented' while women are the 'orient'. Women aren't just the 'other' for in this dualistic system they are the opposite. Some people have commented that having a female Vulcan runs counter to our assumptions – I take the very different view that it only confirms culturally biased assumptions.

Since Enterprise is (hu)man centered an 'opposite' character would naturally be female and alien. Trip can't separate T'pol's Vulcaness from her femaleness because there isn't a difference; they're both analogies for the same thing.

This is a deliberate move – T'Pol is the opposite of Trip in almost everyway. One is emotional, human, tall, blonde haired and fair skinned. The other logical, Vulcan, short, dark haired and darker skin. When we see Archer and Trip first interact there's camaraderie and joking. When Archer and T'Pol first interact he threatens to knock her on her ass. Trip speaks casually while T'Pol speaks formally. Trip begins to yell when he argues while T'Pol often lowers her voice or becomes silent.

Culture:
That's not to say that there aren't cultural issues a play within the character of T'Pol. There are and they're important to her character. The Enterprise isn't dominated by the culture of modern day America; it has its own 'Trek' culture that is similar in some ways and different in others. Emotions are one difference. Kirk and McCoy were especially proud of humanity's emotionality and its need to struggle.

Vulcans have never been shown as enlightened creatures, nor has complete logic ever been shown as preferable to a life of emotions. Even the Vulcans don't *choose* to live a life of complete emotionally discipline. If a Vulcan isn't logical he or she is a wild-eyed savage. Consider T'Pol's refusal to eat meat with Trip and the Captain. The food they're eating isn't from a real animal. It's resequenced protein – it doesn't matter whether she's eating steak or bean paste, it all comes from the same source. Still she refuses, eating meat would satisfy a predatory desire, one that is related to aggressive behavior. Vulcans act the way they do because they are biologically much more emotional and much more aggressive than humans.

Viewers call T'Pol a b**** because that's the message the show is giving them. If the show were about a group of Vulcans and one human, and the human constantly disrupted the status quo, and everyone on board complained about the way the human was acting views at home would consider the human a childish wimp.

Humans are socially adaptive; the biological need to be accepted where you are is stronger than the need to maintain a previous culture. Trek is full of aliens becoming more human and the occasional human going native. (i.e. Riker on the Klingon ship) The ease with which we do so is a testament to the role of stable group relations in our species survival.

Does T'Pol, however, have that option? Vulcan culture seems to value conformity or at least discourages members from diverging from the norm. While T'Pol's gender and alieness makes her different from the rest of the crew it's her culture that brings her into conflict with them.

Power:
Last but not least, power. Much of this discussion has been centered around Trip and T'Pol, especially interpersonal/romantic power which leads me to believe that quite of a few of the posters are female and/or shippers. If you want to talk about power then you're talking about Archer. He's the lead character, the holder of absolute authority, and the representation of the dominant culture. He's also male and human, and while T'Pol might influence his decisions she must always submit to them.

Enterprise is considered a military ship; rank is clearly defined to prevent any type of power struggle. Archer is in change of everyone, T'Pol is in charge of everyone but Archer. That said, if Trip disobeys T'Pol she could simply tell Reed to 'escort' Trip to the brig, Trip would be court-marshaled and discharged from Starfleet. Likewise, if Archer doesn't want T'Pol around or if she disobeys she's on the next transport to Vulcan. The Doctor, (an alien) is the only exception to this and notice how he's isolated within his sphere of authority.

posted June 25, 2002 12:52         

quote:

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Originally posted by Never:
Yes, I finally sat down and read this thread... and the peasants rejoice.
Some thoughts.

Gender:
I hate to point out what's obvious - but Vulcans aren't a different race from humans, they're a different species.

---

Yes, of course. In the Trek future--even the nearer future that "Enterprise" represents--humans have discarded their racial prejudices within the species. Other species have always stood in as the object of racial prejudice. They look different. They have different religious and cultural pracitices. They often hold humans in disdain. I used "race" simply because it was easier. Most of the posters here seem to have understood that and discussed accordingly.

quote:

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Now, the only situation that's equivalent to that is when I deal with someone of the opposite sex. The idea that men and women are from different planets is an old one; before 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus' there was 'Men are of the Sun and Women of the Moon'.

---

This rather simple-minded look at gender identication was not what I, nor the other posters in this thread meant.

quote:

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Most of our cultural perspective is male 'oriented' while women are the 'orient'. Women aren't just the 'other' for in this dualistic system they are the opposite.

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Very interesting idea; however, I'm not certain what you mean.

quote:

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Since Enterprise is (hu)man centered an 'opposite' character would naturally be female and alien.

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Are you saying that 'human' is by definition male?

quote:

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Trip can't separate T'pol's Vulcaness from her femaleness because there isn't a difference; they're both analogies for the same thing.

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I agree that they are both "Other" (the term is useful here). But disagree that they are the same thing. If humanity is "male," it still has to accommodate the "female" of the species in order to reproduce. Male/female dynamics will introduce some aspect of sexuality. Even in a world where men hold all the political power, sexuality complicates the interpersonal power dynamics within the same race(species). Gender issues further complicate those dynamics when they cross race(species)

quote:

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Culture:
That's not to say that there aren't cultural issues a play within the character of T'Pol. There are and they're important to her character. The Enterprise isn't dominated by the culture of modern day America; it has its own 'Trek' culture that is similar in some ways and different in others. Emotions are one difference. Kirk and McCoy were especially proud of humanity's emotionality and its need to struggle.

---

I think we probably agree. However "Enterprise" 'reads' closer to contemporary American values than the original series. TOS and TNG projected a utopian future in which humans had rid themselves of war, poverty, disease, prejudice, etc. In the "Enterprise" universe apparently got rid of the first three on Earth, but not the last one. Notice that the first three are societal, the last one is personal. The "Enterprise" humans are far from perfect. And, yes, they value their emotions.

quote:

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Vulcans have never been shown as enlightened creatures, nor has complete logic ever been shown as preferable to a life of emotions.

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If anything, Trek has gone out of its way to suggest a life without emotions is sterile and hollow, that Vulcans are more to be pitied because they must suppress their emotions, than admired for being able to do so.

quote:

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Viewers call T'Pol a b**** because that's the message the show is giving them. /quote]

Agreed. I thought I said that. I meant to.

[quote]Humans are socially adaptive;
...snipping....
Trek is full of aliens becoming more human and the occasional human going native. ...snipping...
The ease with which we do so is a testament to the role of stable group relations in our species survival.

Does T'Pol, however, have that option? Vulcan culture seems to value conformity or at least discourages members from diverging from the norm. While T'Pol's gender and alieness makes her different from the rest of the crew it's her culture that brings her into conflict with them.

---

Excellent point. Some posters have said similar things (me included), but not quite this way. T'Pol is visually different because of her race (species) and gender: she's Vulcan and female. But the Enterprise crew has had little trouble accepting other races/species they have encountered. However, those races/species are usually presented as being not unlike humans underneath. T'Pol asserts her Vulcanness--her cultural rather than her biological identity. If she is not accepted, it is because she is presented as deliberately setting herself apart.

quote:

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Power:
Last but not least, power. Much of this discussion has been centered around Trip and T'Pol, especially interpersonal/romantic power which leads me to believe that quite of a few of the posters are female and/or shippers. If you want to talk about power then you're talking about Archer. He's the lead character, the holder of absolute authority, and the representation of the dominant culture. He's also male and human, and while T'Pol might influence his decisions she must always submit to them.

---

Abolutely. As I said in my original post, I got started thinking about the intersection of race (okay species), gender, and power because of a comment on one of the "Trip" threads. I started off trying to explain for myself one aspect of the dynamic between Trip and T'Pol and wanted to remove the discussion from the 'shipper context. That's been mostly, but not completely successful. I did ask people to consider T'Pol's relationship with Archer, because I agree with you: if we're discussing power, then we have to look at the people who have it.

However, I think you are mistaken in reducing T'Pol's power relationship to Tucker as one simply of rank. Even people with power have to have the "consent of the governed" as it were. I don't have an answer to this, but consider the scene in "Civilization" when Trip countermands her orders when he thinks that once again she is abandoning the capain. Although he backs down quickly once he learns the truth, she had every right in terms of her rank as second-in-command to have him put in the brig. But she didn't. If she wanted to assert her power, she could have made the order after the crisis. But she didn't.

You are right that I have been looking at interpersonal power relationships rather than hierarchical ones. For one thing, while Trek presents political struggles, it always does so using individuals. Part of the message is that when we embrace our emotions, we are subject to them as individuals. Once sexuality gets into the power mix, hierarchy is never quite so simple.

quote:

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As for cultural power, T'Pol seems hell bent on retaining her Vulcaness but is, of course, on the road to becoming 'human'. While she submits to Archer as a Captain she has not submitted to Starfleet or the human culture it represents. Vulcans seem to do well in this area, as I never remember Spock become human the way Data, 7 or 9, Belanna or Worf did.

---

I hope Vulcans continue their winning streak in this regard. While Data, the Doctor and Seven all struggled to "find their humanity," Spock seemed to me to actively reject it and be the more interesting because of his willful difference.

Thanks,Never for an interesting addition to the conversation.

Bucky

posted June 25, 2002 01:48         

Given Never’s comments about Archer and the hierarchy, do you think she does the same thing with him?

posted June 25, 2002 03:25         

Fundamentally, I share your view on Trip/T'Pol interactions. I did have a slightly different take on the origins of their behavior (which I am now reevaluating).

Trip admits to 3 failed relationships. Given his looks, intelligence, and charm, one wonders why this lack of success. There really are only a handful of possible reasons for this. He might not be interested in women, which none of us believes. His interpersonal style w/ women might be poor, and again, none of us will buy this either. He has let his career far supercede his personal life, which to a degree, I could see, though superficially, he appears the type who could have it all. Was he in a position where he simply did not meet many available women? Doubtful. The last (other than plain old bad luck) is that he chooses poorly. In Fusion he related his regret for not asking a very pretty girl to dance. I suspect he's a victim of the Groucho Marx, 'I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member'-trap. He chooses unobtainable women and then painfully suffers the consequence.

Unlike Archer, Trip's behavior w/ T'Pol has remained remarkably consistent throughout the season. Although I agree you cannot separate her Vulcanness from her womanhood, early on, it was her culture he was reacting to. Later it was her femaleness.

The third aspect of her identity (in Trip's eyes) is her superior rank, which IMO he has never completely reconciled himself to (recall his microexpression when Archer turned over command to T'Pol in SW).

The unapproachable 'Ice Princess' and the Vulcan cultural 'superiority' share the same haughtiness and engender the same response in him. All 3 elements combine to detract from his personal and professional power and engender a resentment he struggles to control/hide. The little jibes he tosses out are passive-aggressive attacks.

posted June 25, 2002 04:57         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bucky:
[b]Myst, you give interesting observations about T’Pol’s pattern of behavior with regard to Trip. Do you mean that she effectively co-opts his suggestions about free will and thus subverts any dislocation in the power matrix that he may have introduced? IE if she accepts his suggestion but asserts she does so because she is “free to choose,” then re-stabilizes the interpersonal power relationship?

Given Never’s comments about Archer and the hierarchy, do you think she does the same thing with him?

Bucky[/B]

---

Hmm. I wonder if she is taking her lead from Archer. Archer does threaten her in BB with the brig if she keeps any more secrets from him, but he never really carries through. Archer does soften the whole hierarchical structure with all the crew, and only came down on T'Pol a couple of times and both T'Pol and Trip in Shockwave. His power is interpersonal rather than hierarchical most of the time - when he asserts the hierarchical power, that is the time to worry.

To me, T'Pol isn't co-opting Trip's suggestions to reestablish the interpersonal over the hierarchical (is that what you mean?). I wonder if she is able to find logic in human ideas of loyalty. Both Archer and Trip are consistent in their beliefs, and perhaps that makes sense to her Vulcan ideas of logic. Vulcans believe that humans are volatile, but although volatile Trip and Archer tend to adhere to certain behavior patterns. I see a pattern in how T'Pol responds to Trip. I don't think she is turning her logic back on his response to appease her ideas of logical behavior to establish power - instead I wonder if she is finding that logic can also embrace consistent ideals of behavior, such as loyalty and friendship, which are part of human nature.

Does this make sense? I just hope we aren't facing the homogenization of T'Pol. Let Trip and Archer appreciate her approach to space travel. I believe that the two men will, because there seems to be a movement toward understanding why space rules are necessary for the humans who are out exploring and for the safety of the aliens the humans contact.

posted June 25, 2002 16:34         

quote:

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Originally posted by myst123:
She doesn’t have to listen to Trip, the way she has to obey the Captain. Her stance seems absolute, but from the first episode she complies with what Trip wants. Is she persuaded by the logic of his arguments, which are based on loyalty? Do emotional arguments make sense to her?

...Is there an example when T'Pol didn't agree to do as Trip wished when it came to hierarchical power?

...T’Pol listens to Trip and is persuaded by him perhaps because he is so consistent about his ideas of loyalty and she finds logic in that. [This message has been edited by myst123 (edited June 24, 2002).]

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Very interesting stuff, myst123. I think you are right. I think T'Pol does find, if not logic, then at least some form of order in emotional human reasoning. It was mentioned in one episode that no other Vulcan has been able to stay on a human ship as long as T'Pol. T'Pol has not only endured her stay, she has thrived on Enterprise. Why is that? Why is she able to do what no other Vulcan has been able to do up to this point? I think it is because she is able to understand the human way of thinking in a way other Vulcans cannot or will not do. Where other Vulcans consistantly reject human "logic," T'Pol actually listens and considers the human viewpoint. I think when she goes silent after listening to Archer or Trip's tirades, she is processing what they have said, trying to make order out of it, and finding a way to fit it into her own system of logic. Several people have commented on the way she usually goes along with Trip on command decisions. Ya'll are right. I was not conscious of that before, but I did notice something similar taking place with Archer. They seem to have a similar pattern. The captain wants to do something that doesn't fit with Vulcan protocol. T'Pol disagrees with him and lets him know why. Archer insists on having his own way. T'Pol uses her logic to make it work. As his subordinate she has to acquiesce to his orders, but I think she goes beyond grudging acceptance to understanding of his reasons. In "Shockwave" she said that Archer had made a lot of decisions that no one could question. I think she was letting her personal experience with Archer color her perceptions. The Vulcans most likely disapprove of just about everything Archer has done, but T'Pol has been on the inside. She understands why he has made the decisions he made, and I think that after reflection, she agrees with them herself.

posted June 26, 2002 17:58         

I find it particularly interesting that T'Pol is the logical female Vulcan, while Trip is the emotional male human. Traditionally, in my experience, Euro-American and Chinese cultures tend to see logic and rationality as positive, male qualities, while emotionalism and intuition are seen as negative, female qualities. This contrast between the two characters is yet another one of the contradictions in their relationship and their appearance on screen, especially given the global nature of Star Trek's appeal.
T'Pol is also Trip's superior officer- I wonder if there is still a 'glass ceiling' in human organisations of the 22nd century? After all, all human figures of authority that we have seen on screen so far, such as Admiral Forrest, have tended to be male. Vulcan authority figures, on the other hand, have included both males and females.
I have noted that some posters on other boards have tended to vocalise the criticism that female authority figures tend to be 'bitches' from Janeway, the Borg Queen and Admiral Nechayev to T'Pol. Is this perception due to the patriarchal and reactionary elements in our society influencing our perception of such fictional female authority figures (and real world female authority figures from Margaret Thatcher to Benazir Bhutto) or how those characters were conceived and written?

I also find it interesting that the human crew of the Enterprise seem to be more comfortable interacting with Phlox, than they do with T'Pol and vice versa. Phlox is not only male but also makes a proactive effort to immerse himself in human culture and customs (Broken Bow, Cold Front), while T'Pol, initially at least, does not. This is perhaps another example of the human crew's inability to accept individuals from cultures which do not or do not attempt to fit into their world view.

I also sincerely hope that T'Pol doesn't become a Spock, Data, Doctor or Seven type character. i.e. the alien 'other' attempting to discover their inner humanity. Not only has this type of character and plot line been attempted on so many occasions as to become cliched and tiresome, such a plotline would undermine the very alieness that T'Pol represents which the humans of Enterprise are supposed to be exploring and trying to understand.

On a related note, I have always wondered why Spock, a half human and half Vulcan, seems to have been raised almost totally as a Vulcan. Did Amanda have any influence in the way her son was brought up? If Spock had been female, or if his human parent had been male, would this have influenced the nature of his upbringing? Indeed will the relationships that T'Pol forms with Trip and the other humans on board Enterprise make it possible in the future for the union between Sarek and Amanda and the birth of Spock? Or will the events on board Enterprise accentuate the tensions between human and Vulcan values that Spock later feels he has to settle in favour of one or the other (Kohlinar)?

posted June 27, 2002 12:35         

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Porthos the Puppy:
Hello everyone, I've been a long time lurker, but the polemic nature of this huge thread has inspired me to make my first posting.

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Well, I’m honored that you would choose this thread to delurk, Captain Porthos although I didn’t think we were engaged in a polemic so much as a discussion. But, welcome to the BBS. You have interesting things to say, I hope you continue to post.

I think you’re right about the genderization in our culture of logic and rationality as male and emotion and intuition as female. While there may have been similar reversals in the past, I suspect that “The X-Files” instituitionalized the reversal with Muldur as the emotional, intuitive male investigator and Scully as the rational, scientific female agent. “Enterprise” can carry on a Trek tradition of asserting the value of human emotions, as Never noted, while alluding to the male/female reversal in ‘X-Files.”

quote:

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I also find it interesting that the human crew of the Enterprise seem to be more comfortable interacting with Phlox, than they do with T'Pol and vice versa. Phlox is not only male but also makes a proactive effort to immerse himself in human culture and customs (Broken Bow, Cold Front), while T'Pol, initially at least, does not. This is perhaps another example of the human crew's inability to accept individuals from cultures which do not or do not attempt to fit into their world view.

---

Others have commented upon the obvious difference between the way Phlox interacts with and is accepted by the crew with T’Pol’s self-imposed isolation. If you are saying that this has less to do with gender and power and more to do with homogenization and co-opting, then I agree with you. I think we could make a case for the gender issue, but what is most noticeable is that the show itself seems to project approval toward Phlox’s attempts to understand and be understood by the crew, while projecting disapproval at T’Pol’s “like it or lump it” attitude about her culture and her values.

Thus, the show sets up the audience to perceive T’Pol as a “bitch,” possibly to allow for her “growth” in sympathy in latter seasons. MR notes that she doesn’t see T’Pol as a “bitch,” but the point is that many viewers do. I’ve grown to like the character and to see events from her point of view, yet my teenaged son, who is new to “Enterprise” episodes, continually says that he doesn’t like her. It’s as if liking T’Pol as a character forces us not to like Archer and the rest of the crew who have difficulty with her.

quote:

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I also sincerely hope that T'Pol doesn't become a Spock, Data, Doctor or Seven type character. i.e. the alien 'other' attempting to discover their inner humanity. Not only has this type of character and plot line been attempted on so many occasions as to become clichéd and tiresome, such a plotline would undermine the very alieness that T'Pol represents which the humans of Enterprise are supposed to be exploring and trying to understand.

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I agree completely with you on this point. Enough with “finding one’s humanity.” Sheesh. Let the aliens be alien so we can learn from the contrast. Enough with how wonderful humans are—apparently every other species bows to our inventiveness, compassion, courage, loyalty, etc. Couldn’t we learn a few lessons first?

quote:

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On a related note, I have always wondered why Spock, a half human and half Vulcan, seems to have been raised almost totally as a Vulcan. Did Amanda have any influence in the way her son was brought up? If Spock had been female, or if his human parent had been male, would this have influenced the nature of his upbringing? Indeed will the relationships that T'Pol forms with Trip and the other humans on board Enterprise make it possible in the future for the union between Sarek and Amanda and the birth of Spock? Or will the events on board Enterprise accentuate the tensions between human and Vulcan values that Spock later feels he has to settle in favour of one or the other (Kohlinar)?

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I suppose for story purposes it worked better to have him be Vulcan in his upbringing and values. However, given the time the original series was produced, I’d expect Roddenberry was incorporating what he’d seen. Children of mixed marriages tended to be raised in either one culture or the other. But your last questions intrigue me. Will T’Pol’s time on “Enterprise” lead to a galaxy where it is possible for Amanda and Sarek to wed and produce a child? One hopes so. Yet Spock’s decision to choose the values and culture of the people he physically resembles and to reject those of his mother are very telling about the lasting legacy of prejudice.

Interesting post, Captain Porthos, I hope to see more from you here and in other threads.

Bucky

posted June 27, 2002 18:38         

quote:

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Originally posted by Milmil:
Unlike Archer, Trip's behavior w/ T'Pol has remained remarkably consistent throughout the season. Although I agree you cannot separate her Vulcanness from her womanhood, early on, it was her culture he was reacting to. Later it was her femaleness.

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Yes, we agree here,

quote:

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The third aspect of her identity (in Trip's eyes) is her superior rank, which IMO he has never completely reconciled himself to (recall his microexpression when Archer turned over command to T'Pol in SW).

The unapproachable 'Ice Princess' and the Vulcan cultural 'superiority' share the same haughtiness and engender the same response in him. All 3 elements combine to detract from his personal and professional power and engender a resentment he struggles to control/hide. The little jibes he tosses out are passive-aggressive attacks.

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Nice summary, Milmil! You’ve captured the essence of several posts here by highlighting that Trip reacts to T’Pol as Vulcan, woman, and superior officer. Do you think he can separate these or that he is unconscious of which or all of the ways he responds to her?

quote:

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Originally posted by myst123:
Hmm. I wonder if she is taking her lead from Archer.

<….snipping…>

His power is interpersonal rather than hierarchical most of the time - when he asserts the hierarchical power, that is the time to worry.

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Interesting point, Myst. Wouldn’t a power based on the strength of interpersonal connections be more typical of the way women are perceived to interact? If so, Archer’s use of a feminine authority dynamic would further destabilize the interaction of gender and power. (It might also explain the strong negative response the character receives from posters on this board—isn’t one of the most common complaints that he doesn’t assert himself?)

quote:

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I wonder if she is able to find logic in human ideas of loyalty. Both Archer and Trip are consistent in their beliefs, and perhaps that makes sense to her Vulcan ideas of logic. Vulcans believe that humans are volatile, but although volatile Trip and Archer tend to adhere to certain behavior patterns. I see a pattern in how T'Pol responds to Trip. I don't think she is turning her logic back on his response to appease her ideas of logical behavior to establish power - instead I wonder if she is finding that logic can also embrace consistent ideals of behavior, such as loyalty and friendship, which are part of human nature.

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and from Wood Nymph on the same point:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wood Nymph:
Very interesting stuff, [b]myst123. I think you are right. I think T'Pol does find, if not logic, then at least some form of order in emotional human reasoning.

<…..snipping….>
I think it is because she is able to understand the human way of thinking in a way other Vulcans cannot or will not do. Where other Vulcans consistently reject human "logic," T'Pol actually listens and considers the human viewpoint.[/b]

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This is an interesting character point about T’Pol and one that suggests that she is aware of the cultural distance and is working to overcome it. Thus T’Pol once again becomes the nexus for either anxiety or resolution. As she attempts to see the logic behind such human values as loyalty, is she further establishing a model for the way Vulcans will interact with humans in the future? Although, Spock, for example, would make a distinction between what was purely logical and what was logical for humans; if he were making a decision that involved humans, he would treat the human “emotional” logic as the one to follow. It was, after all, only logical. However, I get the impression, that except for Ambassador V’Lar, Vulcans have been expecting humans to defer to Vulcan ideas of logic. T’Pol could be the crucial link that allows both species to get past their insistence upon their own point of view.

Bucky

posted June 30, 2002 22:29         

T’Pol could be providing the groundwork for future Vulcan interactions with humans – she could be the one who provides the understanding about human ideas of logic, which include emotion. Archer, then, is the one who integrates the Vulcan ideas of alien interactions into an overall plan which codifies human behavior for other species and which leads to the prime directive. We’ll see what happens next season.

Trip and T’Pol are interacting as male/female as well as human/Vulcan. What do they tell us about gender, race and power?

posted July 01, 2002 09:14         

*reads over the thread*

Oy vey!

Bucky, I understand where you're coming from, and I don't feel patronized. I got all the stuff you summerized. I do understand that you guys are using both literal and figurative meanings of the word "dominate." I should have elaborated more on what I meant when I said I wasn't sure what I thought of the idea that Trip's unconsciously trying to dominate her:

This, in retrospect, is actually a good example of the whole "personal experiences leading to a biased reaction" thing I brought up. Over the years, what has happened is that, in public schools, media outlets, and other areas of life, I've gotten this sort of unarticulated message from a number of sources that basically imply that men are always trying to dominate women and that women are always victimized and such. I'm not complaining, mind you, but I've been exposed to a bit of sexism against men in my very limited time -- a side effect of women becoming more and more equal in society, no doubt (as, after all, any time a group begins to gain more power, there are going to be some within the group who use that power to treat other groups badly) -- and so my knee-jerk reaction to talk of a man trying to dominate a woman is to be irritated. (After all, I don't very well like sexism against my gender any more than most women do, even if it's not the sort of sexism that's cost me anything in life.) As a result, it occurs to me that I was letting this bias color how I viewed the discussion of Trip trying to dominate T'Pol -- I should have put more thought into what I was saying back there. My first impulse was to be a bit put off by it, so I said that I wasn't sure what to think of the idea that he's trying to dominate her. When I look at it more objectively, yeah, more than likely, he is trying to do so unconsciously.

And, yeah, I'm well aware that the main use of the word "dominate" was figurative.

T'Prylla, as I just explained, it wasn't so much that I didn't see the gender/power issues there as it was that my first reaction is to be annoyed by someone pointing them out -- the vast majority of the time, in my experience, when folks point that out, it's usually because they're getting ready to condemn the male for his behavior towards the female. As a result, I let that particular bias color my reaction to folks pointing out that Trip is, unconsciously, trying to dominate T'Pol, and the idea annoyed me -- I like Trip, so my first reaction is to start to become defensive of him. As a result, I posted that I wasn't sure what to think of the idea that he's trying to dominate T'Pol.

I'll see what I can do about changing The System (TM) for ya, but I'm telling you, I'll need a metric wrench!

myst123, you make some very good points, and I can't say I disagree with them.

Never, you make some excellent points, but I would like to point out one minor thing: One cannot compare T'Pol to Seven of Nine in terms of their character arcs. Seven of Nine is a character who was essentially raised in a cult; as a result, her character arc, from Day One, has been about her learning to re-integrate into society. The whole POINT of Seven of Nine is to become more human, whereas the whole point of T'Pol is to show a different perspective, an opposing balance in a show about a couple of guys wandering around the place. The T'Pol arc may involve her becoming more human, so to speak, but I get the impression that the Archer and Trip arcs will involve them seeing more value in the Vulcan system and becoming more "Vulcan," as it were.

RE: Behavioral differences between humans and aliens derived from biology and how it relates to behavioral differences between men and women. I don't necessarilly think it's inaccurate to say that many behavioral differences between men and women are based on biology, but I don't think it's inaccurate to say that as many, if not more, are based on culture. If you ask me -- and I'm, of course, no expert on it -- it's probably a complex combination of the two. For instance, we know that testosterone effects a lot of agressive behaviors, but at the same time, we also know that many women raised with the idea that being agressive or assertive is okay will become agressive and/or assertive. We know that little boys tend to play more "violent" games than little girls, but we also know that little boys, if taught to be more subdued in their behavior, will do so to try to please their authority figures.

(Completely off topic, so skip this if you're not interested: One of the things that always irritated me when I was a wee little boy was when adults would punish me and my friends for playing "violent" games -- for instance, I once had to stand against a wall for five mintues because a friend and I were pretending to fight as Power Rangers zords. [It was the early 90s and I was too young to know how bad Power Rangers was.] They always said that it was too violent, but if they'd paused and looked at it, they would have realized that my friends and I were displaying all these behaviors that they loved to see in little children -- we were using reasoning abilities and empathy to compromise, problem solve power issues (who got to be the good guy), exhibiting cooperative behaviors in agreeing to play based upon certain rules, etc. It's just that these were the framing behaviors for pretending to engage in violence, but, really, those play fights probably taught me more about how to cooperate with others than anything else.)

Bucky, Never wasn't saying that human is by definition male -- Never, I thought, was saying that ENT is a very male oriented show that doesn't always bother to disinguish between a male POV and a human POV.

Milmil, you bring up the idea of Trip being into "unobtainable" women. That, of course, instantly brings up the question, is T'Pol unobtainable to Trip's mind? And, if so, how does that effect his feelings towards her and relationship with her? Will he start to become less intention on unconsciously trying to dominate her -- will he, without realizing it, become more submissive, as it were?

Captain Porthos the Puppy, while there is some truth to your argument about why the crew is more accepting of Phlox, I would like to point out another possibility: Phlox shows a great deal more respect for humans as a species and for human culture than T'Pol does. I don't think he goes out of his way to immerse himself into human culture, but we have seen him go out of his way to behave in a respectful manner towards the crew, which I think they appreciate. That, combined with the fact that he doesn't suppress his emtions, makes him a great deal easier to relate to than T'Pol.

I always got the impression that Spock chose to reject his human heritage because he was desparate for his father's approval. He knew that his mother's love and approval was unconditional -- she was a good parent, and would accept him not matter what he did with his life. On the other hand, I don't think that Sarek was quite as accepting earlier in his life; it is irrational of him, but I suspect that Sarek disapproved of Spock being too human, and so Spock, desparate as he was for his father's approval, sought to be the perfect Vulcan. Quite the irony, that he would embrace logic for an emotional reason, eh?

[[[MAC]]], I, too, hope that there's a plan to make these themes more overt. I agree that the writing is occasionally a bit superficial -- we're forced to rely on the actors' performances for much of how we understand how these characters reguard one-another, rather than how they interact just on the page. The cast of Enterprise is phenomonal, and they're somehow able to make fairly bland scripts work, but when a script doesn't carry enough of its own weight -- such as in the relationship between Trip and T'Pol -- and the audience is forced to rely primarilly on the actors' performances, this can be a problem.

BTW: As I look through the thread, I see a reoccuring theme: the question of wheather or not T'Pol is a bitch. How, exactly, are we defining a bitch? To me (and to a number of women and girls I know), the word is not necessarilly an insult -- my 8th grade science teacher once remarked that she considered it a compliment. To me, a bitch is just an assertive woman -- and I don't consider that a bad thing at all.

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It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.

Niners aren't linear; we're everywhere.

posted July 02, 2002 12:20         

Anyway, I’ve been trying to figure out what’s going on with these characters when they are on screen—something that happens after the show leaves B&B’s hands—because I think it is more than just sexual tension, more than just cultural tension. I think the sum of their interactions is greater than its parts, and I’m trying to figure out why.

I don’t have any idea whether B&B realize what a gem they have in this interaction.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sci:
Hallo. Sorry it's been a while since the last time I've posted, but I've been a bit busy.

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Sci, I appreciate your getting back to thread, and letting me know. Some of these posts are so long, it gets a little daunting to respond.

I do understand your impulse to defend yourself and Trip. As someone who over her life has gone from “blaming men” to seeing that the whole issue of gender politics is far too complicated to reduce to a slogan, I suspect you have heard from a few zealous converts. I’ve been in the feminist trenches for 30 years; I know how the arguments can get distorted. That will always happen when people argue over issues that cannot be simplified.

But, thanks for hanging in there.

quote:

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… the whole point of T'Pol is to show a different perspective, an opposing balance in a show about a couple of guys wandering around the place. The T'Pol arc may involve her becoming more human, so to speak, but I get the impression that the Archer and Trip arcs will involve them seeing more value in the Vulcan system and becoming more "Vulcan," as it were. [/b[

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I agree completely with you on this, [b]Sci. T’Pol is interesting in this mix because she is different. There is no need to reduce her to Girl Sidekick. Notice that both Archer and Trip keep slamming up against her “Vulcan” identity and in so doing are forced to re-evaluate their own understanding of how things happen and why things happen. If T’Pol becomes more human, they will lose that dynamic.

quote:

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[b]Bucky, Never wasn't saying that human is by definition male -- Never, I thought, was saying that ENT is a very male oriented show that doesn't always bother to disinguish between a male POV and a human POV.[/b]

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A fine distinction, but a legitimate one. Thanks for clearing that up. (Guess I got a little defensive on that one. )

quote:

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[b]Milmil, you bring up the idea of Trip being into "unobtainable" women. That, of course, instantly brings up the question, is T'Pol unobtainable to Trip's mind? And, if so, how does that effect his feelings towards her and relationship with her? Will he start to become less intention on unconsciously trying to dominate her -- will he, without realizing it, become more submissive, as it were?[/b]

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Interesting question, Sci. Could you elaborate more on what this would mean?

Also, excellent response on the Phlox issue. Phlox does treat human culture with more respect—whether he agrees with it or not—than T’Pol does. I commented in a reply to Myst, way up at the top of this thread, that at least in the early episodes, T’Pol goes out of her way to challenge human perspectives and human solutions, and continually asserts the superiority of the Vulcan versions.

quote:

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BTW: As I look through the thread, I see a reoccuring theme: the question of wheather or not T'Pol is a bitch. How, exactly, are we defining a bitch? To me (and to a number of women and girls I know), the word is not necessarilly an insult -- my 8th grade science teacher once remarked that she considered it a compliment. To me, a bitch is just an assertive woman -- and I don't consider that a bad thing at all.

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“Bitch” is one of those words whose power depends upon who “owns” it.. However, the point was, that the posters in (other) threads who have called the character a “bitch” have not been complimenting her assertive self-confidence, but have been insulting her willful lack of sympathy.

Great stuff.

Bucky

posted July 02, 2002 16:23         

Bucky

posted July 23, 2002 05:30         

quote:

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Originally posted by Bucky:
[b]I do understand your impulse to defend yourself and Trip. As someone who over her life has gone from “blaming men” to seeing that the whole issue of gender politics is far too complicated to reduce to a slogan, I suspect you have heard from a few zealous converts. I’ve been in the feminist trenches for 30 years; I know how the arguments can get distorted. That will always happen when people argue over issues that cannot be simplified.

But, thanks for hanging in there.

---

I have, indeed, heard from many overly-zealous feminists. To my mind, feminism has always meant that men and women are equal, if not always identical in behavior; to some women, though, it would seem that feminism is the belief that women are superior to men and that men are evil, hormone-driven dogs incapable of rational thought. Gets a bit irritating, ya know? But it is always a breath of fresh air to hear from a feminist who does NOT hold that particular view. Thanks.

quote:

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I agree completely with you on this, [b]Sci. T’Pol is interesting in this mix because she is different. There is no need to reduce her to Girl Sidekick. Notice that both Archer and Trip keep slamming up against her “Vulcan” identity and in so doing are forced to re-evaluate their own understanding of how things happen and why things happen. If T’Pol becomes more human, they will lose that dynamic.

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That, or the dynamic would be reversed -- T'Pol may begin finding her own understandings of how and why things happen challeneged. Personally, like I said, I see no harm in making T'Pol a LITTLE BIT more Human so long as we also make Trip and/or Archer a LITTLE BIT more Vulcan. One good cultural exchange deserves another, eh?

quote:

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A fine distinction, but a legitimate one. Thanks for clearing that up. (Guess I got a little defensive on that one. )

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Happens to the best of us.

quote:

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Interesting question, Sci. Could you elaborate more on what this would mean?

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Well, God knows that in my experience and the experience of most guys (especially in their teens), being around unobtainable women tends to inhibit one's self-confidence a bit. (And rational thinking skills and muscular coordination, but that's an entirely different story!) This can often lead to the male becoming more passive, which is what I was wondering might happen to Trip -- basically, it's speculation on potential character development, and, I suppose, a bit off topic.

quote:

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Also, excellent response on the Phlox issue.

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Thank you.

quote:

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Phlox does treat human culture with more respect—whether he agrees with it or not—than T’Pol does. I commented in a reply to Myst, way up at the top of this thread, that at least in the early episodes, T’Pol goes out of her way to challenge human perspectives and human solutions, and continually asserts the superiority of the Vulcan versions.

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Exactly. Add to that the fact that he's also just, in general, a much more cheerful guy, and I'd probably feel more comfortable around him, too. (Hmm. Come to think of it, it might also have something to do with the fact that he's male, bald, slightly over-weight, and, in short, not exactly Fabio by Human standards, whereas T'Pol looks like a supermodel. I could easilly imagine most of the crew being intimidated as much by her looks as anything else about her. [Insert a big fat "duh" there, as this didn't really occur to me before!])

quote:

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“Bitch” is one of those words whose power depends upon who “owns” it.. However, the point was, that the posters in (other) threads who have called the character a “bitch” have not been complimenting her assertive self-confidence, but have been insulting her willful lack of sympathy.

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*nods* As I said before, totally different definiton for me. I define a "bitch" as an assertive woman, and don't consider it an insult or use it as one the vast majority of the time. (Okay, times of extreme emotion and irrationality, but no one's perfect.) To me, the word is often a compliment, and, frankly, I've always found the company of a "bitch" to be much more pleasant than the company of a submissive girl whose life centers around trying to please guys.

Such are the differences breed by life's experiences, I suppose.

quote:

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Great stuff.

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Thank you.

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It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.

posted August 05, 2002 07:08         

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Chief Repetition Coordinator and CO of the USS Courageous, attached to the Fleet of Incompetence.

It's easy to be a saint in Paradise.

No day but today.